Emco Compact 5

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Hello All

 

I have just got an emco compact 5 machining centre with almost all of the accessories, I need to make a new cross slide screw and nut, can anyone tell me the thread for this, I believe it is metric.

I also want to make the milling table so does anyone have the dimensions of this please, and finally does anyone have the manual as a pdf that I could have?

Many Thanks in advance

Roy

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Roy,

If it is the Compact 5 PC manual you want, look here.

If it is the Compact 5 manual, look here.

Thor

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

I am assuming that the Compact 5 you have is a Manual machine as the CNC version uses a Ball screw for the cross-slide.

Depending on the year of manufacture there are 6 types of Carriage. The early ones had the cross-slide feedscrew thread working in the Carriage itself. Later versions had a separate feed screw nut which allowed for backlash adjustment in the thread. Both these versions of Carriage were Die Castings. The latest versions are machined from solid and have the replaceable nut.

The Machines can be had in Inch or Metric versions. The Metric cross-slide feedscrew dial will be graduated 0-2.5 mm. This means you take off the diameter what you put on the dial. I have no experience of the Inch version.

The pitch for this Metric machine is standard M8 x 1.25 pitch.

There is quite a lot of information in my post here.

Emco Compact 5 Modifications

Spares are still available from Austria.

Regards

Gray,

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Hello Graham

Mine is a manual machine and the cross slide screw seems to thread into the die casting straight away rather than going through and the engaging a nut, is there a fix if it is threaded into the casting or is it another saddle?

Kind Regards

 

Roy

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Roy,

There is no easy fix for this as there is not enough material in the early die casting to fit an adjustable nut. The later versions also used a longer cross-slide to accommodate this backlash adjustment nut.

It is however possible to fit the latest Carriage. Fitting a new endplate which I designed and fitted to my machine will restore the travel using the old cross-slide.

I am going to send you a PM.

Regards

Gray,

 

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

When I got a second-hand Compact 5, I was pretty disappointed to discover the integral cross-slide ‘nut’ was moderately worn – and nothing could be done about it. Emco didn’t do a good job there. Conversion to the replaceable nut variant isn’t just a matter of a new saddle, and the cost of the parts required is eye-watering. I’m still thinking about how to fit a new, adjustable nut to the old-style saddle…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Detailed dimensions of that early top-slide might inspire the forum’s collective brain.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It is the cross slide screw and the integral thread in the carriage that is the problem not the top slide. If you look in Grays modification post there are a couple of good photos though possibly a slightly later model?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sorry …. I was awake not asleep too early

🙁

MichaelG.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

……………………………might inspire the forum’s collective brain.

MichaelG.

Before I engage my brain a couple of questions to the OP.

 

Is this your only machine as that will very much affect what if any modifications and replacements can be made as you can’t machine a part that is needed to allow machining to take place.

Secondly why is a replacement screw and nut needed? Are they missing as you needed to ask the size rather than measure? Or is it due to some backlash that you feel needs eliminating. If it is backlash then how much is already present as it is quite possible to use a lathe with backlash in the cross lide .

As an example my lathe has approx 1.5mm of backlash on the dial as like yours it reads diameter, certainly does not stop me making engines. Allowing for your thread being approx half the pitch of mine then that is 0.75mm backlash on your dial or just less than 1/3rd of a turn.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I shall try to avoid digging myself any deeper … but my post was intend as a response to Kiwi Bloke, not to the OP

MichaelG.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

… but my post was intend as a response to Kiwi Bloke, not to the OP

MichaelG.

OK, I’ll exhume you. You’re right, of course, but I’m not in a position to tear down the machine and measure the saddle, let alone produce anything resembling sensible drawings. In my typically indolent way, I’ve been half hoping someone might provide a solution, rather doing anything about it myself. Graham Meek, over to you… (One can but hint – and be cheeky…).

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

The you tube video shows either an earlier or later topslide because the gib screws are on the other side to mine, mine also has a hole between two of the screws to allow you to clamp the cross slide, this of course could have been added by the previous owner to lock the cross slide and remove the chance of backlash playing a part.

Michael G – what dimensions are you after from the top slide? I can get them from mine.

Is this your only machine as that will very much affect what if any modifications and replacements can be made as you can’t machine a part that is needed to allow machining to take place.

No it is not my only machine, I have a Myford Tri-Leva, Boxford VSL and now a new super 7.

Secondly why is a replacement screw and nut needed? Are they missing as you needed to ask the size rather than measure? Or is it due to some backlash that you feel needs eliminating. If it is backlash then how much is already present as it is quite possible to use a lathe with backlash in the crosslide .

The thread inside the carriage is worn, the screw itself screws onto an M8 nut without any problems and no backlash issues, my belief is that the previous owner replaced the screw and then discovered the cross slide nut in the carriage to be the problem. The lathe is still usable.

Let me explain how I got the machine, In the eighties I attended the ME Exhibition at Earls Court London and Emco were there, on display were models of 1/15 scale cars and so was the builder, Gerald A Wingrove, I spoke to him at length and enquired about the difficulties in making these models, he passed onto me a lot of information regarding how to make the models and also he gave me a first edition book called The Complete Car Modeller, I read this book and decided that was what really interested me, he also used Emco machinery to build these models, he also sent me the plans and photo’s for the Bentley 4 1/2 litre Le Mans car, a lot of his commissions are on display at Beaulieu car museum. Anyway I always wanted the compact 5 machining centre but could not afford to buy one, some years later I became friends with a member at the club and I saw on his bench this machine, he jokingly said “you can have that when I pass on” sadly he now has and the thrill of being given this is overshadowed by the circumstances in how I got it. He also left me a brand new Super 7. My aim is to restore the lathe and use it and not sell these things and profiteer.

Another member at the club has suggested that we put a helicoil into the die casting as that would not require a lot metal removal to do.

[Roy Birch]

On Roy Birch Said:

The you tube video shows either an earlier or later topslide because the gib screws are on the other side to mine, mine also has a hole between two of the screws to allow you to clamp the cross slide, this of course could have been added by the previous owner to lock the cross slide and remove the chance of backlash playing a part.

Michael G – what dimensions are you after from the top slide? I can get them from mine.

[…]

I must again apologise for my error … I mis-read Kiwi’s post

I have no personal interest in the Compact 5 … I was just trying to help, and have thereby muddied the water.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. The brochure featuring Wingrove is here:

https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/13371/compact_5

 

 

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

All opinions and comments are welcome, I have that brochure which I think Gerald gave me at the ME Exhibition, I remember that the brochure with the pictures of his chassis and the model plane maker did everything to inspire me, at the time I owned a unimat 3 and that is why I visited the Emco stand, I was not aware until that day of Gerald s existence because he did not appear in the unimat 3 brochure.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I thought he used a Unimat3, I bought his book Unimat Lathe Projects back in the early 80s when I first got my U3 and also lusted after a C5 but surpassed that when I got my Emcomat 8.6 as an ex demo from the then importers as it was being superseeded by the compact 8. It was Hannu Prettner they used on the C5 promotional images.

So you are doing it more for the need of wanting less backlash rather than an unusable machine and you have the  option to do any milling on one of the Myfords.

I’m not sure how backlash free a fit you will get with a helicoil and at just under 10mm major dia for the tap could get quite close to the top of the carriage.

Having engaged my brain for both you and Kiwi’s benifit If there is a real need to eliminate backlash as much as possible then I might get a bit more drastic ( I”ve not got one to check ifthere is enough metal but should be no more than a helicoil would need. Assuming your carriage is much like the one in Gray’s thread then I would open out the existing thread to clear the M8x 1.25 screw. Then mill a pocket to a depth of 1mm below the nominal 8mm of the existing hole with say a 6mm milling cutter as that will go deep enough. Some M2 clearance holes from below will also be needed placed where they best fit.

Then taking a piece of bronze hill it to fit the pocket with as much material above the hole as possible, but leave it about 6mm short. Cut a slot say 5mm in from the back and tap two M2 holes through to that slot. Plus a couple more shallow M2 hole sin teh bottom positioned to best suit cap or CSK socket screws up from the bottom of the casting.

Now put two M2 cap heads into the holes in the rear so they just touch the opposite side of the slot with a mm or so tread still clear out the back and mount the new nut in the pocket up against the front edge and secure in place with the screws from below

Now set the csting complete with new but up on the Myford then form and thread a M8 x 1.26 hole. The two M2 screws at the rear can be used to wedge the back of the nut apart which is a commonly used way of adjusting out backlash in the screw threads. A shortened allen key will get you into the gap.

Before doing any of this worth also checking that any backlash is not down to movement of the leadscrew in the front housing rather than play in the screw/nut. usual Emco method to adjust this out is to loosen the nut in teh middle of teh handwheel and turn the handwheel on it’s thread to reduce any gap then retighten the nut.

 

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

In his workshop in Lincoln he actually used an Emco 8 or 10 which had a milling column on the back, he also had the compact 5 as a lathe and a separate milling machine, the book regarding projects on a unimat 3 was used to really promote the unimat 3 but to my knowledge he did not use the unimat 3 for the car work, he was very repetitive which was the requirement to be able to make all of the small parts for the cars, he was a toolmaker for Dinky or the other small car manufacturer before he setup on his own.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Jason,

The photo above shows the latest Carriage with the M12 backlash adjustment thread. The original casting has a step at the front of the Carriage to clear the collar on the cross-slide feedscrew.

It could well be possible to machine the cast step and plant a replacement nut on this step. It would reduce slightly the travel of the cross-slide with the standard set-up. The status quo could be restored with a new endplate as shown in my thread on Compact 5 Modifications.

Generally

There might be enough material for a Heli coil repair but I am unsure how this would wear with regards to the feedscrew. It may wear the latter quicker? Heli coils in my experience have only ever been used for anchorages.

Best regards

Gray,

 

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Hallo Roy,

Instead of a Helicoil repair you could think about a repair with a Time-Sert insert.

The drill diameter for this is type of insert is smaller than for Helicoil, so less risk of breaking through the top surface of the carriage etc. And the Time-Sert insert is a thin walled solid bush, the Helicoil is a spiral wire.
But, as Graham says, these inserts are most probably made for anchorage. They may introduce a lot of friction to the lead screw resulting in wear of the latter.
I never tried it and solved my “problem” by buying a replacement carriage plus cross slide according to the improved design with adjustable nut. This, however, does not mean that I am not interested any more in an adequate solution for the problem

Regards,

Jouke

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

This Picture shows the carriage, the nut shows sign of wear.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

These pictures show the amount of backlash which is between 20 and 25 thou.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

20thou backlash, I’d just get on and use it.

But from the photo you almost have a ready made pocket for a split nut similar to what I showed. Mill out some of teh existing threaded material so th enut sits towards the front and you won’t loose thread engagement. It may depend on how much clearance there is vetween th ecrest of teh vee bed and the screw though part of teh nut could be scalloped out for clearance.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I think to be fair if I could get the backlash less then the amount I am likely to use this lathe it would be unlikely to get much worse in some years, I am now considering just making a new nut similar to the Myford cross slide nut assembly and screwing it in, I know that a split nut would be good but will I ever have the need?

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

 

For my part I would be more inclined to tap the hole out a larger size, preferably with a finer pitch thread.

A headed Phos Bronze bush, which is screw cut on the outside diameter and tapped M8 would restore the thread with minimal loss of travel and ensure alignment of the two threads axially. The bush could be retained with a thread locking compound.

This method has the advantage that the bush can be made longer and there by giving greater thread engagement which in itself will prolong the life of the thread. It also reduces the amount of work needed to salvage the Carriage.

Regards

Gray,

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