Gas Tap Valves. Vintage

Gas Tap Valves. Vintage

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  • #852613
    dee
    Participant
      @dee

      Hi, I’m new here so please bear with me. I thought this should perhaps be be under Help of Assistance, but though it best to start here.

      Vintage three ring burner.

      Gas Tap Valves.

       

      I’ll get right into it…

       

      The valve barrels with their tapered tap valves, are what I’m looking to find a solution for. One of these had snapped off at the valve bracket. Fortunately, knowing a few folk in the business, some friends were able to machine up a replacement brass barrel in their spare time. Fitting the existing male taper ‘key’ valve to the new female taper has been the challenge. That part is machined, I’m now looking to find how to get the tolerances of the whole tapered valve/s to slip fit perfectly.

      The construction of the valve is a brass barrel with a tapered hole into which the male tapered ‘key’ valve fits to create a gas tight fit. This is operated between on and off through a 90˚motion. This ‘key’ valve is held in place with a UNF1/4 thread, a tag washer, a spring washer and captive nut.

      A 1/15 ratio reamer taper which is a taper of approximately 3.8˚ from the axis, was used to form the new barrel taper, but these are approximations that I do not have the metrology to attain exactitude, and have yet to find how to make the slight discrepancy of taper angles between old and new, slip fit to tolerance. I have tried various specialist gas related sealers/ lubricants and tapes which have improved matters, but a tiny amount of play is still present.

      Forming ideas for the slip fit went as follows: some lapping paste, maybe >400grit, but the thinking was that that would ultimately deform the planes of both conical tapers, abrading the old as well as the new, deforming the original reference. On to the next idea!

      The next idea was to temporarily glue (with bearing retainer) emery paper to the ‘key’ tapers which are original and in good condition, having no light coming through on a flat test of their planes, these could be ‘former’ to the newly machined barrel taper. The difficulty was that emery paper could not be gotten thin enough to reach the lower, narrowest part of the new barrel taper hole in that arrangement. This re-profiling using the ‘former’ idea was done by hand, concentricity was a concern, but after several sessions of minute material removal, this did make a difference improving matters. Once assembled the leaks had reduced to small ‘buds’ when ignited, but not gas tight, and as you might conclude, that’s not acceptable. The relative height of the key tapers in operating situ and making these tapers deeper or altering the original ‘key’ tapers in any way did not seem wise, so the project was shelved.

      The narrow taper ø is 8.9mm probably aiming for 11/32″, the wider taper ø is 10.4mm engineered for 13/32″ across 1/2″

      My lack of equipment to accurately measure and then hone (if thats the right word) very particular conical taper angles is the challenge. With the right equipment, it’s a twenty minute task for three valves.

      A full length male taper without the hole of the original, with the exact same angle with an even abrasive applied that could fit in a chuck, was as far as my thinking got.

      This is the last hurdle on the restoration, which I would really like this not to become a door stop!

      So here I am, hopping to impress upon some one with more experience than my self what the solution may be to getting these taper valves gas tight?

       

       

      This is what it looks like:

       

       

      A

      General assembly:

      Frame 18″ cast

      Burner, cast

      Valve bracket, cast

      Valve barrels, brass

       

      B

      Foundry Logo?, manufacturer unknown

       

      C

       

      As you can see most of the work is done, it’s no longer a ball of orange rust. It now stands. It blows clear, it has valves and all leaks have been identified and sealed with the correct compounds.

      D

       

       

      E

       

      F

       

      This is the new valve internal that requires a slight internal re-profiling as mentioned above:

      G

      The air intake/ oxygen mix adjusters are quite loose due to being thin, I think 1/6″ from memory, they have a habit of rusting up.

      They could do with being 1/8′ thick in brass with a interference fit for stability, this would complete the refit.

      #852614
      Diogenes
      Participant
        @diogenes

        EDIT – aha, now there are pictures – not sure how useful the info below will be..

        Usual way of dealing with these sort of jobs is –

        At the same time as new male pintles/tapered valve inners are made, a blank for a reamer should also be turned-up; i.e. at the exact same topslide setting – this can then be milled to just below the centre-line to produce a ‘D’ reamer that will produce a seat for the valves. I’d make it in silver steel and then harden it – it can then be stoned and polished with the objective of giving a satisfactory finish to the seat.

         

        #852618
        dee
        Participant
          @dee

          #852614

          …Of course and thanks, but that would be the clarity of hindsight in this context.

          This is a request for assistance/ advice using what is existing and making it fit gas tight, whilst retaining the interesting character of the device.

           

          #852621
          Andy Stopford
          Participant
            @andystopford50521

            First of all, try using engineer’s blue, or a blue or black spirit-based marker pen, to find out where the components are actually touching, e.g. at the wide end, narrow end, just in patches, etc. The best course to follow rather depends on what you find.

            I’m presuming the ‘keys’ are original – do you know whether the tapers on them are in good condition?

            #852629
            SillyOldDuffer
            Moderator
              @sillyoldduffer

              Several clues in Dee’s photo that his ring isn’t vintage.  Therefore replace it, or scavenge new valves from a new one if the all Brass look is important. Fitting new avoids making leak-proof home-made tapers without having the necessary skills or equipment.

              Example below is from amazon, much the same available from the other usual suspects!

              Screenshot From 2026-06-18 19-58-13

               

              If home-made valves are essential, I’d start again as described by Diogenes.  Depends on how far off the as-made thus far dimensions are, but making inaccurate tapers fit together gas tight is liable to be hard work. Look up Engineering Blue if this is about developing skills.  Tapers are best measured with suitable equipment, there are no easy shortcuts.

              Though her lessons are painful, hindsight is a wonderful teacher! However, I dislike her pointing out my mistakes.  I found buying books and magazines to be a good way of avoiding surprises.  And the forum has been invaluable.

              Sorry if my answer isn’t what was wanted.  Be interesting to see what others suggest, but I think Dee has a seriously difficult problem given he doesn’t have the necessary equipment.

              Dave

              #852637
              alecs
              Participant
                @alecs

                There is no way to make a gas-tight seal between two mismatched tapers without proper workshop equipment. Give up while you are ahead before you have an explosion from leaked gas.

                #852638
                DC31k
                Participant
                  @dc31k

                  You have the existing male valve. Mount that in a lathe*, dial it in true, copy its taper onto a suitable lap and finesse the new female taper.

                  I think the same design is used in steam fittings, so past writings from this hobby would show you some ideas (see searchable magazine index).

                  Commission your business associates to make another barrel on which you can refine your technique. Or borrow the reamer and make the initial tapered hole yourself on a piece of scrap.

                  Minimal equipment – the same dial indicator used for concentricity is used for taper copying.

                  Tapers rarely need measuring, but often need matching.

                  The nylok nuts on the tapers may be inappropriate for a hot environment.

                  I suspect you may be using ‘vintage’ in the eBay sense. As you can see above, they are univerally called a ‘boiling ring’.

                  * because of the handle it is difficult to hold. Hot glue lumps of wood to it and use four jaw chuck.

                  #852640
                  Speedy Builder5
                  Participant
                    @speedybuilder5

                    Dee, here is one I made earlier, just over 1 cm long, shown with the ‘D’ bit reamer.

                    Drain Cock Build Large

                    #852641
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      Although skimming the cocks and making a reamer at the same setting to recut the valve bodies is the way to do it, I am not sure there is enough metal to do so. Looking at the OPs photos the cock’s taper is already right down into the valve body and due to the taper ratio only a small amount taken off will see the cock go a lot further into the taper.

                      A taper reamer in action

                      DSC00511

                      Final lapping of teh cock into the valve

                      DSC00514

                       

                      #852643
                      Robert Atkinson 2
                      Participant
                        @robertatkinson2

                        You have made no indication of the use of this burner. In the UK there are safety regulations around gas equipment maintenance. Even if it is running off bottled gas doing work for someone else, even unpaid, will almost certainly leave you liable in the case of a incident and may be an offence in itself. You need to carefully consider your position. Bizarrely despite being primarily an aerospace electronics engineer, I’m trained and registered to work on hydrogen systems. But i am not allowed to service my own gas water heater…..

                        Robert

                        #852656
                        alecs
                        Participant
                          @alecs

                          Safer to buy new valves, available on eBay, Aliexpress, Alabama, Made-in-China.com.

                          These burners complete are often listed as “country cooker”. Or camping stove or burner etc. China appears to be still churning out these vintage burners. If they work  why change it?

                          Screenshot_20260619_190431_Google (1)t9fjmt3u3r0zldj0plku2qj6acjpiu1kScreenshot_20260619_190308_Samsung Browser
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                          #852657
                          alecs
                          Participant
                            @alecs

                            Screenshot_20260619_191337_Samsung Browser

                            #852690
                            dee
                            Participant
                              @dee

                               

                              Thanks for the real world positive contributions.

                              I’m a little embarrassed not thinking of a reverse image search. Apologies.

                              “or a blue or black spirit-based marker pen” Yes that’s what i did to start.

                              JasonB  ” I am not sure there is enough metal to do so.”.   This concerned surfaced when lapping the barrel, fine for higher grade emery, definitely a concern for a cutter. Good observation.

                               

                              As for the temporary nylocs, UNF 28 is not so easy find in Phildas turrets, in fact there are few single locking nut solutions that would work on that type of milled thread:

                              L

                              .

                              This thing is branded, all the screw heads for the repair were what was lying around and were originally slot head. Certainly some of the above suggestions have strong similarities, but I’m not confident of “made in Chian” valves frankly.

                               

                              The simplest solution may be to turn up a bit of solid brass to match the original taper, temp glue emery and rotate in the new barrel.

                              The thought of using wave washers instead of split spring washers on the taper may help centralise the axial pressure better.

                               

                               

                              #852715
                              howardb
                              Participant
                                @howardb
                                On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                                You have made no indication of the use of this burner. In the UK there are safety regulations around gas equipment maintenance. Even if it is running off bottled gas doing work for someone else, even unpaid, will almost certainly leave you liable in the case of a incident and may be an offence in itself. You need to carefully consider your position. Bizarrely despite being primarily an aerospace electronics engineer, I’m trained and registered to work on hydrogen systems. But i am not allowed to service my own gas water heater…..

                                Robert

                                I am reasonably certain that taper gas valves are no longer approved for use on either portable or any other gas appliance in the UK,  but I can’t find any standard or instruction that supports this.

                                It’s approved ball valves only so it seems.

                                https://www.ballvalve.co.uk/gas-approved-brass-ball-valves/

                                 

                                #852737
                                alecs
                                Participant
                                  @alecs
                                  On dee Said:

                                   

                                  Thanks for the real world positive contributions.

                                  I’m a little embarrassed not thinking of a reverse image search. Apologies.

                                  “or a blue or black spirit-based marker pen” Yes that’s what i did to start.

                                  JasonB  ” I am not sure there is enough metal to do so.”.   This concerned surfaced when lapping the barrel, fine for higher grade emery, definitely a concern for a cutter. Good observation.

                                   

                                  As for the temporary nylocs, UNF 28 is not so easy find in Phildas turrets, in fact there are few single locking nut solutions that would work on that type of milled thread:

                                  L

                                  .

                                  This thing is branded, all the screw heads for the repair were what was lying around and were originally slot head. Certainly some of the above suggestions have strong similarities, but I’m not confident of “made in Chian” valves frankly.

                                   

                                  The simplest solution may be to turn up a bit of solid brass to match the original taper, temp glue emery and rotate in the new barrel.

                                  The thought of using wave washers instead of split spring washers on the taper may help centralise the axial pressure better.

                                   

                                   

                                  The thing you will find is that a very small amount of metal removed from the diameter by emery or reamer etc results in a very large movement of the male taper lengthways, resulting in the male plug sticking out too far and becoming unuseable as spring tension adjustment is lost, handle hits the body, and through holes dont line up. Been there, done that many times on similar brass cocks on vintage machinery, so I know of what I speak.

                                  Then there is the issue of getting the two pieces lapped together well enough to form a gas-tight seal. More metal lost, and very difficult to achieve zero leakage.

                                  As you have a friend who can turn you up a tapered plug, you say, I would rather make use of him to cut the handle off the old  plug and join it to a newly made correct taper plug. This could be done by turning a suitable spigot and hole on each piece respectively and silver soldering them together.

                                  Thats the way I would do it, having wasted many hours before faffing about with emery paste and the like on tapered brass cocks.

                                  #852738
                                  bernard towers
                                  Participant
                                    @bernardtowers37738

                                    using emery paste will not get you a good seal, its a startv but suggest you end with at least 800 grit lapping paste. my pet cocks on my bike are done like that and do not leak a drip.

                                    #852743
                                    alecs
                                    Participant
                                      @alecs
                                      On bernard towers Said:

                                      using emery paste will not get you a good seal, its a startv but suggest you end with at least 800 grit lapping paste. my pet cocks on my bike are done like that and do not leak a drip.

                                      That was with two matching but worn tapers. Dee seems to have two mismatched tapers requiring more metal removal, viz his plan for emery paper glued to a dummy tapered plug, although it’s unclear from his description just how mismatched they are.

                                      Timesaver brand of lapping paste is good for such finishing lapping as it does not leave embedded abrasive particles like actual emery paste as used on hard valves in engines etc.

                                      #852746
                                      alecs
                                      Participant
                                        @alecs

                                        On the other hand, I wouldn’t be to averse to buying in new China-made valves. The foundry mark on Dee’s original looks very Chinese to me.

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                                        #852753
                                        Nicholas Farr
                                        Participant
                                          @nicholasfarr14254

                                          Hi, yes there are laws and regulations about servicing gas equipment, I have been trained in the inspection of Oxyfuel gas equipment, which as you can see on the certificate it includes equipment maintenance, but, this is not down to component level, and it means I can replace faulty units, but replacing parts within any unit is not allowed.

                                          img003b

                                          Therefore you should scrape any faulty gas equipment, and replace it with new.

                                          I’m not that likely to have to use this much these days, but it does cover me on my own equipment of this nature.

                                          Regards Nick.

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