which mill and lathe … advice please if poss

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which mill and lathe … advice please if poss

This topic has 14 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 30 May 2011 at 13:00 by Nicholas Farr.

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24 May 2011 at 19:44 #69139
keith Elliott 1
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@keithelliott1
Hi,

I’m a hobbyist silversmith .. so I can cast, fettle, polish and solder small stuff with few problems. I also have a coronet woodturning lathe that I play with.

So now I want to make some small mamod style engines. First I need to make small boilers (non-trivial if multi-tube.. but maybe just very simple ones to start with) and tools or devices to be driven by the steam pot. I’d like to make 3″ scale traction engines all in good time. I also could benefit from the benefits of a turning machine to improve/quicken finishing on 4-5 inch solid metal (usually silver, sometimes gold) tumblers (ie drinkng vessels like gin & tonic glasses which still sell ok).. so I think that 150mm over the bed (or the thing the cutter is set on for metal lathes) will be the max I need.

Price .. would love a myford super 7 (double the price, 10x the life etc) but have been thinking about warcos and chesters after the harrogate show.

Spinning would be fun (and maybe make me some cash by spinning shaped silver goblets) too .. but I suspect (but don’t know) that spinning might be best achieved by a specific spinning machine.

So .. with a budget of £500-£1k max per machine (lathe, mill) what would you folks suggest for a total novice to metal machines ? (UK based)

thanks in advance

Keith
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24 May 2011 at 19:44 #5524
keith Elliott 1
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@keithelliott1
24 May 2011 at 20:01 #69140
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
If you want the machine to have the capacity to do the traction engines from the start you are going to need to be able to swing 13-14″ (possibly in a gap bed) unless you sub out the flywheel and final drive. Even then you would want to have a machine with 10-12″ swing.

Mill wise you may get away with an X3 size depending on teh actual prototype but something a little larger would be better.

And don’t forget to allow at least another £500 for tooling probably more though this can be built up as you go along.

Spinning is possible on a standard lathe, I’ve done a bit of mild steel without too much trouble

J

Edited By JasonB on 24/05/2011 20:02:26
25 May 2011 at 09:28 #69172
magpie
Participant
@magpie
Hi Keith

Both Warco and Chester UK are very helpfull and give good backup service.

I chose Chester for various reasons, not the least of which was because they are much

closer. I would say go for the biggest you can afford, but remember tooling will cost

a fair few quid on top of the cost of machines.

Last september i bought a DB10VS lathe and a Champion 20V mill, with stands, for a bit less than two grand, but that was before that nice Mr Osbourn put VAT up.

Both needed a minimum amount of set up, but the mill stand is not realy up to the job.

Hope this is some help, and if you live anywhere near south Cheshire you are welcome to pop round and check them out before you make any decisions, just send me a PM to let me know if you do want to call.

Cheers Derek
25 May 2011 at 10:03 #69173
keith Elliott 1
Participant
@keithelliott1
Thanks … as I’m a total novice I guess it may be better to start with something smaller than would be capable of doing everything I may ever want to start with. I’m guessing that this is sensible (on the basis that small machine are obviously a fair bit less than £1k but bigger ones seem a lot more .. and I also guess the tools etc are often more expensive for bigger machines ?).

I hadn’t thought about quality of stand (I bolted my woodturning lathe to my workbench and its fine) but I guess they may be very important. Are they typically boltable to a bench or is getting a good stand pretty important?

The other things I was thinking of making (with a mill) are weather vanes from shibu-ichi (a copper/silver alloy) and skeleton clocks in a hard silver alloy (less copper than shibu- ichi) so I guess a mill would need gear cutting equip too.

Any other suggestions for solid reliable brands of machine (chester is my default at the moment) would be very welcome.

cheers

Keith (ps I’m in the south west .. not far from Taunton)
25 May 2011 at 11:16 #69178
John Allan Watson Brown
Participant
@johnallanwatsonbrown
One excellent source on making small boilers and engines I can recommend is Building simple model steam engines by Tubal Cain a.k.a Tom Walshaw. You will find it easily either Amazon or Tee Publisher. This is a little treasure trove of small boiler making tips and instructions. 4 projects are included and I am working my way through these just now. Look up the internet on “make lathe gears easily” for one way to cut gears. The best lathe is one that can fit in your shed and still have room to work There is plenty of good threads on lathe purchase pros and cons. Hope you enjoy this new hobby I am.
25 May 2011 at 13:04 #69184
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Keith, When I got my larger size (300Kg), Taiwanese lathe, I built a stand out of 50 mmX 6mm angle iron, all hand cut, then welded. The lathe sits on three bits of 100 X50 channle steel. The area under the head is boxed in with a door on the front. It required 1 mm of packing uner the tail stock end, and even after the earth quakes and their after shocks, its still OK. A coat of grey paint, and it looks nice, that was about 22 years ago, and I’d do the same today, only I’v got a band saw now so I would not have such tired arms, and my own welder, so I could do it in my own workshop. Ian S C
25 May 2011 at 16:28 #69188
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The X3 / 20V size mills are Ok to sit on a sturdy bench, my X3 does without problems.

A lathe of around the DB10/11 or 250/280 size can go either way, I have my 280 on the makers metal stand but replaced the panel between the two cupboards with some draws as its a waste of space.

To cut gears on any mill you will need a means of dividing the gear blank into the number of teeth required, this can be done with a dividing head or a rotary table with a set of indexing plates, I use the latter as the rotary table has a lot of other uses. You will also need suitable gear cutters which can be had for about £20 each and an arbor to hold them with.

Jason
28 May 2011 at 18:00 #69280
Pat
Participant
@pat
Keith – Decide how big a machine envelope you need as you have posted some different requirements. Making a traction engine at quarter scale – this is a big beast – and requires some big parts as Jason points out. For spinning brass and copper as well as silver your Coronet would do.

I suggest you think in terms of a lathe with milling slide as this will do much of what you require. There are several sources of imported lathes in addition to those made in the UK.

I suggest you go and have a look at a many as you can. Do not fall for the patter that all Far East machines are made in one factory and badged / painted to suit the retail outlets. This is just not true as a comparison of the bench ready weights will show. Pose as an owner of a recent machine just out of warranty and ask about about spares say a spare head stock shaft or a tail stock as this will help gauge their after sales attitude.

The attraction of the combined mill / lathe combos is great on paper but the size of job they will tackle may not be much greater than the lathe with a milling slide. Don’t forget this is a bit like jewellery making there are loads of tools and accessories some of which are essential and whilst others may be useful there lots of others that you will not need.

Buy then stop looking and start making chips! – Regards – Pat

Edited By Pat on 28/05/2011 18:02:50
30 May 2011 at 10:14 #69349
keith Elliott 1
Participant
@keithelliott1
Thanks for all the feedback.

Last question about my purchase.

It seems that I can buy a new reasonably solid and well built lathe for a bit over £1k or for similar money buy a second hand big lathe (eg Harrison M300, Chester Cub 630, Warco 1440 etc). Space isn’t really a major concern.

Is it obvious to anyone which type a novice should buy ?

My instinct is that a massive machine would be better in the long term but a lot more hassle for a beginner in the short term.. and there’s more of a risk that I buy something stupid/needing a lot of repair second hand as I don’t know what I’m doing at this stage.

Any feedback on risks/benefits would be very welcome … then I’ll get on with it !
30 May 2011 at 10:34 #69351
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

With larger lathes, definitely Colchester, I have had problems in industry with second hand lathes.

What happens is the carriage gearbox fills up with soluble oil and is left then turns to water, the oil separates out. Then all the gears and shafts go rusty and it can cost a £1,000 or more to fix it.

This may happen on other large commercial lathes.

regards David
30 May 2011 at 10:46 #69354
ady
Participant
@ady
Ooh. The chicken and egg scenario….

Spareys “The Amateurs Lathe” can’t be recommended too highly, he has an excellent section on choosing an amateurs lathe.

One thing he doesn’t mention is a dog clutch, very handy for screwcutting and auto feeding.

The fancier your lathe the more options you will find come as standard, and the greater the probability that something will need fixed/sorted/tweaked.

The only thing I would be very wary of is something on the lathe I couldn’t fix myself, and would never have a hope of sorting.

Personally speaking, as an amateur, I wouldn’t touch headstock roller bearings with a pole and I would stay away from anything electronic, lathes get a hard life if you get seriously hooked.

I also recommend backgear as far too important to ignore.

Do lots of reading up on your options, take your time and agonise for a while.
30 May 2011 at 10:56 #69357
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Hi Keith,

I would certainly suggest looking at second hand lathes of a reputable manufacturer. I have just bought a rather nice Boxford (not up to 3″ traction engine though) to run alongside a Warco VM 280V F.

The Boxford is capable of good work for your smaller engines and has a 10″ Max dia. I paid £300 for the it in excellent condition having been in a school for it’s life up ’til now. It also came with a quick change tool post and quite a lot of tooling – some of which I don’t need and will sell. This machine will more than last me out as they were ruggedly built to a high standard. The AUD machines come with a ready made stand but the older (9″ swing) are rear drive and can be bench mounted, but often come with their own stand.

If you eventually decide on the traction engine and need a larger machine you will be able to sell a good Boxford or similar quality manufacturer for more or less what you paid for it, but you may not have that sort of luck with a Chinese made machine, and you will have gained a lot of experience Another advantage of buying second hand is that you will also have more equity to invest in a better milling machine.
30 May 2011 at 10:57 #69358
ady
Participant
@ady
as I don’t know what I’m doing at this stage

A lathe which breaks down and fits into a car and is easier to resell/transport if you realise that this is not your game might be a good idea.

Lathe work is dirty dangerous and highly skilled, and the highly skilled bit takes quite a long time to acquire.
30 May 2011 at 13:00 #69363
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi, I bought a secondhand Boxford 4 1/2″ BUD from a place in Glasgow, which is about 380 miles from me. As it weighed around 200/250 Kg. it went on my trailer with no problem. They are certainly worth their money IMO, and as they were a popular model for schools, a beginner shouldn’t have much problem learning on one.

On Tony’s web site, http://www.lathes.co.uk he points out how they can be broken down into manageable lumps, to fit into a car as small as a MK1 Golf, for reasonable easy transport.

It’s always best to shop around a bit for a second hand lathe, if that is the root you decide to take, but if you are unsure as to what the condition for the price is, it is always good to ask someone you can trust to help you.

One advantage of buying a second hand lathe to learn on I suppose is, if you do any damage to it while learning, it doesn’t hurt the pocket as much as a brand new £1 K + machine might, of which you might be a bit timid to use until you gain a bit of confidence.

Regards Nick.
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