How long?

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

I have always fancied making a model IC engine and after much deliberation decided on the 6cc Atom Minor MK3 from Hemingway kits for my first attempt. A simple (I hoped), attractive looking, not too small and fiddly engine for a beginner to build.

I opened an on line account with Hemingway Kits and placed my order for the full castings set , bar stock , drawings and instruction booklet. Within a couple of hours I received an email telling me my order was dispatched. Brilliant.

Ordered Friday , arrived Monday mid morning beautifully packaged in a really strong box. Everything looked really good, castings, booklet, nice clear drawings and material, but where is the central crankcase casting? Oh, that’s to follow in six to eight weeks. How long!!!?

The first piece needed to make a start on machining  was missing. Six to eight weeks is not an acceptable wait without prior notification, a few days or a couple of weeks, well okay.

I was not a happy bunny so I ‘phoned Hemingway and expressed my displeasure at the lack of courtesy and frankly common sense in not notifying me of the shortfall before dispatching my order. I was polite but communicated my disappointment and annoyance to Kate who merely said “send it back. If you’re not happy, send it back”. So I did.

I enclosed a letter explaining why I was returning it. My letter was also complimentary about other aspects of my experience, not just a letter of complaint.

My money was promptly refunded. I received a curt email from Kate to this effect. At no point have I received a meaningful apology either written or verbal.

It would appear Hemingway are more interested in making a sale regardless, than in fostering a rapport and good customer relations .

I am not given to complaining and like to thank and praise when warranted.

A needlessly disappointing  Hemingway experience for me.

Adrian.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Adrian

I think you are a little unfair on Hemingways. The old firm had a problem with casting quality, particularly aluminium. Other than the quality of the material, castings where frequently under size and bits of the castings could be missing (from my experience). Reeves 2000 bought the business about a year ago and I guess they are still finding out what they have got. Again from experience Reeves uses the customer as the final inspector (a practice I dislike). However, Hemingways returned you money without question which is good. If they discovered the problem with the crackcase casting on your order, a turn round time of 8 weeks is quite reasonable. This is very different from when I was buying spares for old bikes where items never fitted and if you complained you frequently got a face load of abuse.

JA

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Are you in that much of a hurry? you could have spent some of the time familiarising yourself with the drawings /processes etc. A bit of thinking time can save a lot of embarrassment later on.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Unfortunately and waiting for castings is likely to get worse in some cases. I believe some of the Anthony Mount casting kits for his engines from Polly Model Engineering now have a reservation list where enough have to sign up for and a casting run is only done once the numbers make the economics worth while.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose an email explaining the situation would have been nice, at least with Polly you know there will be a wait. If you know the crankcase will be 6weeks then you can decide to wait, have what is in stock or cancel. More likely to hang on if you know the wait than cancel.

As Bernard says use the time to look over the drawings and any build notes, order tools and cutters you may not have and there are still all the small parts that can be made such as crankshaft, conrod, ignition bracket & assoc parts, venturi, etc and even more if you are happy machining the crankcase to fit the end covers. Certainly no reason that you have to start with the biggest bit.

Go to any foundry and they will quote you 6-8week lead in time. Also from other suppliers that I know it was simply not economical to have individual parts cast as and when because it took them a whole day to collect from the foundry plus a couple of tanks of fuel. Spreading that cost over 50 or so castings is reasonable but to doing it for one would mean selling at a loss.

All the highlighted parts could be done without need to “fit” to the crankcase. Maybe not six weeks for me but others work differently.

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

Thank you Jason for taking the trouble to respond in such detail, and to the other contributors . Yes I could have made a start on other parts/assemblies but as a complete novice I wanted to start as others have with the crankcase.

My whole point here has been the lack of consideration and courtesy, in our modern world it is no longer necessary to put a letter in the post and wait for a reply, most of us are a phone call, text, or email away. A few strokes of a key pad is all it takes. I don’t think that is too much to ask.

Anyway I have had my say, lets move on.

Adrian.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I think that Jason, and others, summed up the situation quite well.

And you were told that the lead time would be six weeks.  So Hemingway (Reeves) were aware of casting problems, and were having them corrected.

We are not in a massive volume production environment, here.  Rather with a small intermittent customer base, so that parts will be produced in small batches, rather than continuous runs.

How many kits for your engine do you think are sold each year?

Try buying a 5/16 BSW bolt.

You will get one, at a price; eventually, because the annual demand is minute, so small batch production, rather than the huge volumes of M8 used every day, which justify nearly continuous manufacture.

The items that our market demands probably sell a hundred a year or less, not the 500, or more, a day that are catered for by mass production.

If you look at the ads for ready to runs items, in ME/MEW, you will see that they are made in batches of limited size, to cater for our specialised demands.

There is no global mass market for thousands of 5″ gauge locos each day, unlike microwave cookers or washing machines.

I used to work for a company, where we tried to produce 1500 engines a day, but never quite made it. That calls for a continuous supply of castings, not a few every so often. One customer took just 5 of one particular specification a year, others took 5,000, but most parts were common!

Once, I dropped a zoom lens. It was scrap because the manufacturer, who had sold thousands, had run out of spare parts, world wide. They wern’t going make a one off for me!

One off bespoke items tend to be expensive, and the timescale can overun as problems are encountered. Did you think that you would produce your engine within a tight time frame, say within a day, every day?

Howard

[Howard Lewis]

On Howard Lewis Said:

And you were told that the lead time would be six weeks.  So Hemingway (Reeves) were aware of casting problems, and were having them corrected.

Adrian was not told, he only knew when the package arrived less the crancase. As I said a quick email etc before processing the order would have been the best option and likely seen Adrian happy to wait.

The real question now is what is Adrian going to build. He has lost faith in the only supplier I can think of now of castings for a small 4 stroke aero engine. His options are go the barstock route and either build a barstock looking engine, the longer route of carving from solid which is not really an option for a beginner or draw it up and get a 3D aluminium print but that needs the ability to draw and workout the undimentioned parts of the castings

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, Adrian 2 didn’t say if he had a T.O.S: note on his invoice, which is explained in their T & C’s. Yes it’s disappointing when all your order doesn’t come at the same time, but it’s nothing new, and may well happen more often these days.

Regards Nick.

[egaParticipant @ega]

I think I have occasionally seen “Out of stock” indications on specific HK items on their website, perhaps something for Reeves to consider.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I wonder how long it will be before kit suppliers don’t supply castings any more but 3D metal printed parts from the far east which have a much shorter leadtime than castings.  Of course it will take a long time to make the 3D models of parts, but for new designs it’s inevitable.

Russell

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I believe Reeves have most of their existing paterns 3D scanned now so no real need to draw them from scratch but they would be best modified for 3D printing by doing away with core prints etc.

Set of “castings” for an engine here. 3DMPed – Frame, Flywheel and cylinder.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Good to hear that Reeves are on the ball.  Smaller traditional suppliers might have more difficulty though. Thinking of Blackgates, College Engineering, etc.

Russell

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

Bloody hell, a lot of people on here are rather ‘forgiving’ these days, aren’t they?

When I go to a product page of a business, and that product is not listed as out of stock, and there is no indication that part of the product is on back order, I expect to hit that “Add to Basket’ button, wait the standard delivery time, accept the parcel from the courier/postie, open said parcel and find precisely what I ordered.

If I don’t, then I will communicate with the business in a courteous and friendly way, asking for clarification.

Assuming I haven’t been an idiot and made a mistake about what was promised in the product description, I expect the business to be humble and polite enough to offer an apology and to try to correct, or at least mitigate their mistake (whether that be a simple packing mistake, or as in this case, a failure to set realistic expectations about the delivery lead time for an important part of the product, before the customer paid for the product).

I certainly would not expect what appears to be essentially:

“Oh, did you not know about the lead time for castings?  Well, you can either wait or you can have your money back.  Either way, shut up, stop bothering me, and fekk off”

Now if supply of castings is a problem such that we see these long lead times (and I guess, in these tricky financial times, expecting a small niche business to keep sufficient stock on the shelf just in case, would probably be unreasonable), then that’s not the fault of Hemingway.

However not making an extended lead time clear at the point of sale is sharp practice at best, and possibly even a violation of trading standards law at worst.

I’d have a clear explanation on the product descriptions about castings lead times and that the initial delivery may not contain certain parts.

And the total lack of customer care, is definitely Hemmingway’s fault.  Given they messed up by not making the lead times clear before purchase, I’d expect anl sincere apology at least, if not a little goodwill gesture.

Assuming the OP is being honest (and I have no reason to doubt him) those defending Hemingway on this thread are defending shoddy practice (the lack of clearly explained lead times) and bad customer service.

Neither of which will help companies like Hemingway stay healthy.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Interesting that Reeves used to label at least their loco castings as green (popular and almost always in stock), yellow (less popular but reasonably short delivery) or red (castings to order when there is a batch for the foundry). Just had a look and see that this system doesn’t seem to exist any more. Possibly too difficult to manage in practice when there are a large number of different castings for a given design? Not sure if it was ever in place for the Hemingway kits.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

We need to be realistic. As hobbyists, ours is a small market, for specialised items produced in small batches.

Consequently, from time to time, certain components will run out of stock, Suppliers cannot be expected to invest large amounts of capital in things that might not sell for a long time.

Even in mass prodution, bespoke items cause problems. A customer, (one of over a hundred) with an off take of 5K per annum, spread the volume over different types. The minimum order for one particular vital component was 25, when we would only use 5 per annum. The accountants used to complain about the 20 lying on the shelf for a year!

But because of the overall effect on the business, we bit the bullet to keep our market share, rather than risk losing all that business.

That was in relatively high volume production of 1+K units per day, so life for small market suppliers demands much more care over stock and capital.

And what we make is unlikely to be the machines by which we earn our living, so time is not of the essence.

Howard

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

Thank you Howard.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

I worked for a company that sold bearings. A customer had a run of special bearings made for a on scheduled time plan. Someone ruined a bearing and another (1) just (1) was needed. They called the manufacturer and attempted to order just (1). They were told the bearing manufacturer’s schedule was planned 2 years ahead and Their schedule could be interrupted to make that bearing but the cost would be very high. The bearing company called anyone who might have one on the shelf, or anyone who had bought one in the past. No joy anywhere to be found. Story stopped there.

[southernchap]

On southernchap Said:

Bloody hell, a lot of people on here are rather ‘forgiving’ these days, aren’t they?………………………

Not sure where that came from.

 

Most of the replies here relate to the title of “how long” that is no being forgiving of Hemingway it is simply stating the way it is. When did you last order some castings from a Foundry? I am getting quoted 6-8 weeks

I’m one of the only ones to have also addressed the other issue and said it would have been nice to have been informed which is a shorter version of what you are saying so not being forgiving.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

From Adrian’s opening post:

Six to eight weeks is not an acceptable wait without prior notification

I agree completely.

That’s the essence of it … most of the discussion about the harsh realities of foundry-work  is ‘noise’

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’ve just seen Jason’s edit

Yes, that’s a much clearer way of working … but Reeves is retailing catalogue items, not responding to RFQ

MichaelG

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

Thank you Michael and Southernchap.

That’s it . Nothing to do with lead times or foundry problems, just thoughtfulness , politeness , and consideration for the customer.

Adrian.

[Adrian 2]

On Adrian 2 Said:

Thank you Michael and Southernchap.

That’s it . Nothing to do with lead times or foundry problems, just thoughtfulness , politeness , and consideration for the customer.

Adrian.

Totally agree, the very least they could have done was to inform you of the casting shortage and give you the option of waiting or cancelling.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

On southernchap Said:

Bloody hell, a lot of people on here are rather ‘forgiving’ these days, aren’t they?………………………

Not sure where that came from.

 

Most of the replies here relate to the title of “how long” that is no being forgiving of Hemingway it is simply stating the way it is. When did you last order some castings from a Foundry? I am getting quoted 6-8 weeks

I’m one of the only ones to have also addressed the other issue and said it would have been nice to have been informed which is a shorter version of what you are saying so not being forgiving.

Michael has written in a few lines what I took a lot more to write.  I apologise my verbosity.

[Author]

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