Taps and Files

This topic has 17 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 24 October 2016 at 23:42 by Robin Graham.

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23 October 2016 at 22:55 #262632
Clive B 1
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@cliveb1
Hi Guys

Can someone out there give me the lowdown on taps and files, let me put you in the picture I bought some taps and files from B&Q, what can I say they were a complete pile of rubbish the taps wasn’t even very good for cleaning up an existing thread, never mind trying to cut a new one.

The files again after a few rubs was like trying to remove metal using a nail file, you know the type the ladies use for shaping their finger nails, I believe both of the above sold by B&Q are made from carbon steel which is absolutely useless.

OK the taps namely an M6 x 1.0 2^nd, I’ve been looking on e-bay at HSS Volkel and I’ve found the business end, the end which does the cutting is only 19mm long.

Now I’m going back donkeys years but I thought they were about 1.25 to 1.5 inches on the end which does the cutting unless of course I’m getting mixed up with the old whitworth taps.

My question, is 19mm long about right for an M6 tap??

I’ve tried to find a standard which states how long the cutting thread end should be for the various size metric taps, can anyone tell where can get this information from??

Next files I’m after some second cut 10 to 12 inches long, can anyone suggest a good make, the ones where the cutting edge hasn’t worn off after the first few rubs, it just saves on the old arms??

Thanks for any advice given.

Clive
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23 October 2016 at 22:55 #18238
Clive B 1
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@cliveb1
23 October 2016 at 23:07 #262635
Jeff Dayman
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@jeffdayman43397
Hi Clive,

Clarkson Blue Wizard are the best taps I've found, FEW from Switzerland are also good, or Butterfield from US if you can find them.

For files Nicholson from US have been great in the past. Folks on here have recommended Grobet from Switzerland as well.

Don't know of a standard for cutting end length on taps, but usually they are relatively short these days, 4 or 5 times the tap OD or so. Certainly not as long as you remember for M6. Enormous thread engagements usually don't help an assembly much, the first few threads do the major part of the holding anyway. If you have a deep hole to tap, like a pulley hub on a flywheel, you can always bronze weld or silver solder a mild steel rod to a regular tap to reach in.

Good luck. JD
23 October 2016 at 23:24 #262640
Nick_G
Participant
@nick_g
Posted by Clive B 1 on 23/10/2016 22:55:40:

My question, is 19mm long about right for an M6 tap??

Clive

.

This is a Dormer 6mm 2nd tap.

I have ground the very tip off though. (before the cutting edges start) So yeah, I would say about 19mm is more than enough for a M6 2nd tap as this Dormer one is less than that.

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 23/10/2016 23:26:12
23 October 2016 at 23:36 #262642
JohnF
Participant
@johnf59703
Hi Clive, second Jeff's recommendation but another brand thats also pretty good is Lyndon see MSC supplies, look at their October flier but done forget to add vat to the price.

Personally I would always buy HSS ground thread taps and dies. Tracy tools are also worth a look.
MSC Link **LINK**

MSC often have some sets of HSS taps and dies which can be good value look at the Lyndon 33pce set here but you need to watch for it coming on offer !
**LINK**

Regards JohnF
24 October 2016 at 01:19 #262646
Roger Head
Participant
@rogerhead16992
There was a little flurry here a short while ago, regarding some Spanish (?) files. Now that Ketan is stocking them I'm waiting with bated breath for someone to buy some and give a comparative report.

I still have some Nicholson files from 20-30 years ago and they're still usable. I have the feeling that the ones I bought a year or two ago won't be around in 2040. But I'm happy with some Bahco files, and a wood saw that has seen a lot of use and is still razor-sharp.

Roger

Edited By Roger Head on 24/10/2016 01:20:04
24 October 2016 at 07:47 #262653
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The Dormer E500 hand taps which look like what Nicks are also work well for me, Sets of three from MSC when on offer are best buy. I also have Vockel in the smaller sizes and Volkel dies, Rotagrip do them on e-bay. Generally you don't get any more strength from the thread over 1.5 times the diameter so in most cases you don't need to tap deeper than about 2D.

I just have a mix of files picked up at the shows but will give The Tome ones from ARC a try when I next place an order
24 October 2016 at 07:57 #262656
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
Clive,

The usual 'buy cheap, buy twice' applies. Yes, some brand names are over-priced because of the name, but the cheap imports are often for the 'use once' diy-er. I avoid bee and queue, if at all possible. Neither cheap nor good quality for most things.

Any tap beyond the first tapered tap will have already cut threads to keep it aligned, so they do not need to be so long. Even in deep threads, the tap will only be cutting threads over a short distance.

Oh, and there are ways to avoid extreeemly deeply threaded holes for pulley bosses or similar – thead at the outside and remove the threads from the screw towards the end, or for avoiding marring a shaft, use a brass insert to bear against the shaft.

As above, buy better files. It makes the job so very much easier (and almost enjoyable!). Most of my favourite files have been bought at car boot and farm sales. Carefully selected and mostly made in Britain (yes, that old!).

The other thing that used to bug me was 'once only' wood screws and useless screwdriver tips. Reisser screws and screwdriver tips solved that over 20 years ago!

You will also find that cutting tools vary greatly in quality. Whether woodworking or metal. Even carbide tips can be good and tough or poor and very brittle. Learned that with router bits.
24 October 2016 at 07:57 #262657
Chris Evans 6
Participant
@chrisevans6
I will only ever use HSS taps out of choice but have used carbon steel for one off sizes that I will most likely never use again but only ever in aluminium. Files are another matter, when some come recommended on here I will buy them to try, I have had mixed results over the last few years regardless of cost.
24 October 2016 at 09:07 #262662
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
I bought a set of taps and dies from The Tap & Die Co (website is http://www.tap-die.com/) and they are excellent.

Usual disclaimer.
24 October 2016 at 09:35 #262666
Michael Cox 1
Participant
@michaelcox1
I have used the Tome files, referred to above, in Portugal and they are the best files I have ever used. ArcEurotrade now stock them here in the UK.

Mike
24 October 2016 at 10:04 #262668
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Just a point of order, carbon steel is the usual material for files. That said there are still good files and paint stirrers.

Neil,
24 October 2016 at 15:02 #262725
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello Clive,

I have 5 files of Tomé Feteira manufacturer since then and they still perform well so I continue to use them when I need.
My grandfather, who was a blacksmith, already used them and I still have a file that I "inherited" from him.
When the files were in poor condition my grandfather used to sent them to the manufacturer to restore.

As Michael Cox wrote above, now ArcEuro is stocking them.

Dias Costa
24 October 2016 at 15:37 #262732
neville rigg 2
Participant
@nevillerigg2
Hi Clive

I have a couple of files by Nicholson one stamped black diamond made in U S A about thirty years old and one I bought maybe three years ago but stamped Nicholson Made in Mexico, no complaints about either but maybe the second one won't last that length of time, progress and globalisation?

Neville.
24 October 2016 at 15:54 #262734
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello Clive,

To correct my previous post.

I started my activity in the hobby in the eighties.
I have 5 files of Tomé Feteira manufacturer since then and they still perform well so I continue to use them when I need.
My grandfather, who was a blacksmith, already used files from Tomé Feteira and I still have a file that I "inherited" from him.
When the files were in poor condition my grandfather used to sent them to the manufacturer to restore.

As Michael Cox wrote above, now ArcEuro is stocking them.

Dias Costa
24 October 2016 at 19:42 #262790
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/10/2016 10:04:01:

Just a point of order, carbon steel is the usual material for files. That said there are still good files and paint stirrers.

.

Neil,

May I just expand on that ^^^

Good files are made from 'carbon steel' … but it's crucible steel or similar, with a high carbon content.

'Paint stirrer' files are also made from what might legally qualify as 'carbon steel' [BUT]

MichaelG.
24 October 2016 at 22:25 #262825
Clive B 1
Participant
@cliveb1
Hi Fellas

Thanks for all your replies, I knew I could rely on this forum to get a crash course on the best files and taps to go for.

The only files I’ve bought recently were from B&Q and as I said total rubbish and hard work, I can only assume they have a low carbon steel content but I'm no expert.

I think it will be a tossup whether go for Nicholson which there seems to be plenty of advertised on

e-bay or go for the Tome feteria.

I’m still having a look at the taps and the prices.

Thanks again

Clive
24 October 2016 at 23:42 #262836
Robin Graham
Participant
@robingraham42208
Vallorbe would be another option for proper files – Axminster sell them. I've had similar experiences with cheapo files, taps and dies. Hall, Lyndon, Dormer taps and dies work well for me. Just looked at a M6 Hall bottom tap and the thread length is indeed 19mm, which is plenty..

Rob
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