Win 10 updates (again)

[TomfileryParticipant @tomfilery]

Bandersnatch,

I should have realised!!!!!!

Yes – I completely missed the sarcasm – sorry!

Regards Tom

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Danny M's question about Windows 10 updates was 'So how does one turn off this invasive crap and take back control?' Good question!

The answer is a lemon. Though you can delay them, Windows 10 Home does not allow you to ignore updates. The professional edition offers more control, but even that won't leave you entirely alone. I'm pretty sure automatic updates could be stopped by altering several Registry Settings. Sad that registry edits are well beyond the average owners skill level. Unless you know different?

Isn't it strange that engineers of all people feel the need to defend their favourite operating system by abusing another one, often inaccurately or with sweeping generalisations? Did my hero Neil lack journalistic balance when he suggested all Linux is bad because his particular install failed to recognise a particular Wifi, whilst he 'forgot' the hassles people often have with Windows Drivers?

Bottom line is Windows10 doesn't allow users much control over updates while Linux makes taking updates entirely voluntary. But I doubt going Linux will help Danny unless he has the energy needed to take on another operating system AND knows that his drone software will run on it.

The total control offered by Linux is particularly useful for those who need an embedded operating system for their hardware. Although Microsoft dominate the desktop, they have failed as a platform for Smart Phones, Routers, Point-of-Sale, Media Systems, Telecommunications, and Automation. Not because Windows is technically incapable, it's because Linux is much less restrictive.

But so what? I suggest it's unhealthy to be emotionally attached to computer software. If you feel threatened when someone points out failings, then look to your psychology. Is what you have really beyond reproach, or are you just a fanboy? Rather better to see software as a tool doing work. If your choice does a good job for you, that's fine. Keep an open mind though – no tool is perfect, and a rationally chosen alternative might be a better choice.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/10/2018 17:06:12

[Roger ClarkParticipant @rogerclark]

Well said Dave, what all of you need to remember is that Windows 10 and it's predecessors are targeted at the commercial market firstly and then the public market.

Hackers are working 24/7 to get ways in to access data and some of the updates are there to protect the user and their data.

You will be the first ones to shout murder if you had your personal details lifted and sold to the highest bidder to use for whatever. but if you refuse to accept updates who then is responsible?

Don't forget MS Windows is not the only operating system under attack, Apple OS, Android, Linux and all its versions even down to Rasbian and its flavours, if it's connected to the internet it is open to attack.

Roger

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Bennett on 31/10/2018 09:54:23:

What I really want on my keyboard is a fully-functional button labelled "Just Do It".

.

That should be assignable to one of the F keys, I presume

MichaelG.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I see that the latest update for the Apple Watch has resulted in some becoming unresponsive and requiring returning to a service centre for 3-5 days.

Mike

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Just downloaded and installed the latest big W10 update on my dual boot laptop. It took a whole day to install after downloading at night. Five or six reboots required, each time it booted into by favourite OS rather than W10 so I had to reboot again. Finally W10 was updated and working but responded very slowly to the keyboard. Another reboot and everything seemed OK, at least until I fired up Fusion 360. It failed to start as the system time was wrong. It hadn't remembered my internet time server settings. Told it to use the European pool rather than the Windows time server, rebooted once more and all was well.

Why do MS make updates so difficult? When I update the Linux installation it takes minutes and works in the background with no reboots necessary.

Russell

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Reading this thread reminded me why I changed to a Mac three years ago. I don't have to wait for endless updates to come in BEFORE I read my email or check something on the internet. I'm sure there are many ways for the user to circumvent this but the fact is now, I don't have to. This is not intended to start the usual Mac V PC debate so much as a simple statement of fact. All my PC's dating back to 1990 would have an "issue" at least once a month that demanded me spending hours doing something to it while stifling the urge to throw the thing out of the window (perhaps that's why it's called Windows?). It's probably the origin of my distaste for new machinery you have to fettle in order to work properly before being able to use it when you shouldn't have to. There is no need for a "Just Do It" button on this keyboard.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 04/11/2018 11:44:45:

Just downloaded and installed the latest big W10 update on my dual boot laptop. It took a whole day to install after downloading at night. Five or six reboots required, each time it booted into by favourite OS rather than W10 so I had to reboot again. Finally W10 was updated and working but responded very slowly to the keyboard. Another reboot and everything seemed OK, at least until I fired up Fusion 360. It failed to start as the system time was wrong. It hadn't remembered my internet time server settings. Told it to use the European pool rather than the Windows time server, rebooted once more and all was well.

Why do MS make updates so difficult? When I update the Linux installation it takes minutes and works in the background with no reboots necessary.

Russell

Russell, you have my complete sympathies. This is exactly the scenario that I cannot afford to have occurring at the whim of Microsoft.

Believe me, if my flight control software worked on another platform (such an Linux) I would be onto it like a shot.

It would be nice if Microsoft just offered an 'Opt Out of Updates' option, even if it came with a waiver that they assumed no responsibility for lack of compatibility with future 'Offerings'. That is a price that I would be willing to take a chance on.

My old workshop P4 computer is still running Windows XP, it is not networked or ever connected to the Internet and it's sole task is to run Mach 3 which it does nicely (I have plenty of backups, spare drives and power supplies). Any updates or useful machining tips are transferred via a USB stick. As Mach 3 indicated, it is best run on a dedicated system.

Even older is my little old Australian Microbee Z-80 computer that I built (soldered together) back in 1983. It's sole purpose in life (apart from sentimental value) is to control and monitor battery charge/discharge cycles via an A/D converter and to integrate the resulting graphs hence giving me warning if a particular battery pack is losing capacity, Yep, it even has the old green screen (I have spares) and the only problems over the years have been the requirement to occasionally de-solder and clean/replace key-switches with tarnished contacts.

Even the old cassette system still works, although long ago I burned the vital programs into EPROMS (instantaneous boot). It sometimes talks to the XP machine via it's RS232 port

I suppose that I miss the days of of hand coding Assembler but it sure was fun and I had complete control of the machine and any mistakes were down entirely to me.

I might take some photos of the old girl in action and put them in my album if anybody is interested.

* Danny M *

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 05/11/2018 04:31:37:

My old workshop P4 computer is still running Windows XP, it is not networked or ever connected to the Internet and it's sole task is to run Mach 3 which it does nicely (I have plenty of backups, spare drives and power supplies). Any updates or useful machining tips are transferred via a USB stick. As Mach 3 indicated, it is best run on a dedicated system.

Same here. It's been working fine for five or six years now with no updates.

Russell

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 04/11/2018 11:44:45:

…

Why do MS make updates so difficult? When I update the Linux installation it takes minutes and works in the background with no reboots necessary.

Russell

I don't know for sure, but I put it down to the different origins of the two operating systems.

Linux is a variety of UNIX which was developed by computer scientists to run on the large computers of the day. An important feature of big machines is they are multi-tasking and multi-user, with an expectation that large numbers of individuals depend on the machine at the same time, maybe 24×7. As it's painful to deny service to large numbers of people, considerable effort was put into minimising downtime during upgrades. In particular, almost all updates can be done without rebooting the system, or any interruption to users at all.

Windows was developed commercially via DOS to run on tiny single user machines – 'Personal Computers'. The microcomputers of the time were very limited and MS_DOS was could only provide a single user single tasking service. On a PC only one person is inconvenienced by upgrades and, before Windows-NT, most of the technical features needed to support UNIX-like updates were missing from Microsoft operating systems. Over time microcomputers have become massively more powerful and Microsoft have developed Windows considerably. What is done on a corporate system (Servers & workstations with the Professional versions of Windows) is much more UNIX-like often using third-party management software. Unfortunately, very little of this sophistication is available to domestic users. Possibly it's too late to change the personal computing platform. Perhaps Microsoft's update infrastructure, which includes the way application vendors package and sell their software, has become permanent – too expensive to change now. Bit like the UK driving on the Left rather than the Right.

Dave

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Windows 10 & updates
I've referred before to the daily newsletters from "HowtoGeek". This has just arrived and explains why I've been having problems with file associations.
.**LINK**

"Microsoft Broke Windows 10’s File Associations With a Botched Update"

I've not yet put Linux (Kubuntu 18.04) on my main desktop but have now installed it on an old laptop.
Looking good so far.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

It's interesting that Microsoft were actually behind the curve as it was. Early Windows did indeed sit on top of DOS, and v.1 & 2 just did not work. V.3 .0 was the first version that worked. But…

In the 1980's, I was system manager for a multi-user, multi-processor system using Z80 8 bit microprocessors and a version of CP/M known as MP/M. This system allowed for up to 14 simultaneous users, upto three public printers, plus each user could have their own personal printer. And in addition, it was possible to have up to 2 dial-in lines. The system used bank switching to allow up to 256kb RAM. (A Z80 was designed to access 64kb RAM.) And all before Windows appeared.

Then, in 1989, I moved jobs within the organization, and gained a PC AT for my work. This machine came with DOS 3.20, 3 versions of BASIC, and a program called Desqview along with 2Mb RAM. Once set up correctly, Desqview allowed task swopping, and for the copying of data between programs. Yes it was a bit clunky, but it worked. Again, all before Windows appeared.

Finally, at home in about 1990, I ended up with a Sinclair PC200, a PC XT clone running DOS 3.30, and if desired a program called GEM which allowed for two windows to be open simultaneously to allow easy manipulation of programs, eg copying, moving etc, but not task swopping etc. Again this was before Windows gained its stranglehold and introduced the general public to these ideas.

I have to say that Microsoft managed to combine all the above ideas more or less successfully into one program and they deserve credit for it. Unfortunately, they then went on to, in my opinion, abuse their position, witness the anti-trust cases and the fines levied against them.

Peter G. Shaw

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Like many other people here my experience with desktop computers goes back to the very early 1980s and mainframes for 10 years before that. As someone who has been involved with computer/IT education for most of that time I have come to the conclusion that Windows PCs will work well when regularly updated running programs that are similarly kept up to date. Windows 10, as pointed out by a previous poster, works best when kept online so updates are downloaded when they become available. Yes things go wrong with updates and things get broken – but it is usually the up to date ones that get fixed first. What it is not easy to do reliably is to maintain a Windows PC in the past with an old operating system or one not updated to run old software. Things like antivirus or drivers can very quickly become issues.

My experience with macs is that they are far more able to be preserved in the past with a previous version of hardware, running a previous version of the operating system with previous software than a Windows PC. I have here a totally reliable PPC mac mini with Microsoft Office that runs well – and my Macintosh SE/30 would be similar if I powered it up more often. Modern iMacs at work are similar running their own software reliably, but having issues with updated versions as Apple updates can cause problems that are very difficult to resolve as they can make demands on hardware that cannot be met.

As a Linux user since 1995 (Slackware on 23 floppy disks!) It seems to be the most reliable system but it is very definitely not quite a consumer level one yet, and if your program is not available for it then you may be out of luck, although some of the emulators like WINE are quite reliable. I have a Linux based webserver at work that has been running fro more than three years, updated and upgraded when I remember to do it. It just keeps going.

My suggestion based on experience with many many computers is that if you run Windows keep it and your programs updated – it will break from time to time but be fixed quite quickly. If you take the Mac route you cam preserve your machine as it was when you bought it, but if you do update it, it can be broken beyond repair and that Linux works the most reliably – if it works for you at all.

Incidentally my abacus has never given a moments trouble and will still add up accurately and the drawing board that I used at university in the 1973 still works – is there a moral there? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 06/11/2018 22:23:42

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 06/11/2018 22:32:00

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

WinXP rools

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