Surplus subjects learnt at school.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Wow, a lot of clever people on here, Grammer school?!….wow

I failed the 11 plus, went to a bog standard secondary modern skool, Latin, Greek?…..no. I took 7 CSE's and failed the lot. I loved metalwork and woodwork generally due to the good teachers (thanks you Mr Salmon and Mr Waters).

Hated school, could not wait to leave, did an apprenticeship in a shipyard as a marine engineer this led on to other jobs and ironically a further total of 12 years at technical colleges doing further engineering study in first mechanical stuff and then electronic things…..I much enjoyed technical college, better learning environment for me I suppose – I guess I was a late developer…

Regards to all

Derek

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

@Howi – I enjoy work tremendously so why would I look forward to giving up something I genuinely love?

I have plenty of things to fill my time so I'm not concerned about being bored

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

why do so many people dread the prospect of retirement?

Edited By Howi on 22/07/2019 13:16:31

For several years I have been telling all the groups and clubs I'm involved with I don't have time to do xyz 'cos I'm still working. When they find out I've retired I'll lose my excuse.

I don't think we've had any Americans on this thread yet. From various films I understand their schools revolve around car maintenance shop & learning to drive in school time. Sounds like classes I would still be benefitting from, though I wouldn't have liked the mandatory singing all the time.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I spent a lot of my formative years in the Far East and attended a British Forces School in what was then Malaya, returned to the UK at the age of 13 and attended the local grammar school where I was subjected to Latin, French and German along with Science subjects. I enjoyed the sciences but hated the languages. Had problems with fitting in with my peer group as I joined the school in the third year and was considered somewhat of an oddity having come from halfway round the world, this was the early sixties, consequently suffered a fair amount of bullying so schooldays not all that happy. Could not concentrate on school work so only achieved three O levels much to my parents displeasure. Made my mind up that I needed to get away from home life and so joined the Air Force in 1964 and served just over 22years as an Aircraft Technician, wouldn’t have swopped it for anything else thoroughly enjoyed it and left at the rank of Chief Technician having travelled widely and had many enjoyable experiences. Never had to even think about Latin ever since leaving school and only used French and Latin on visits to the continent. Was keen on completing a degree via the Open University but severe depression and PTSD in later life put paid to any thoughts of that.

Dave W

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

One good win on the lottery and you won't see my arse for dust.

If anyone wants a more authentic translation, the following will serve:

simul et usus ero alea satis prospera, podicem meum prae pulvere non videbis.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/07/2019 19:03:11:

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

One good win on the lottery and you won't see my arse for dust.

If anyone wants a more authentic translation, the following will serve:

simul et usus ero alea satis prospera, podicem meum prae pulvere non videbis.

Just shows wot a good education gets you.

try this one!

Once I cuttent even spel injuneer and now I are one.

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Posted by Howi on 23/07/2019 09:15:51:

Once I cuttent even spel injuneer and now I are one.

Wen I wer a children i cood dent eyethur

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/07/2019 19:03:11:

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

simul et usus ero alea satis prospera, podicem meum prae pulvere non videbis.

 

Well: Google translate came up with this from that text:-

and the use of the dice at the same time I will be quite successful, will make naked in comparison with the dust, Thou shalt not see my.

quite amusing in its own right I think.

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:38:56

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

I am not certain that there are any universally 'surplus' subjects in school.

The only learning that is not appropriate is that which is either unsuitable for a particular student or badly taught.

People learn in different ways and a practical approach my suit some, a written one others, making some subjects more useful than others but only as more or less effective methods of learning to learn. The content of any subject is often secondary.

The whole idea of a successful education is to prepare someone for living and hopefully learning throughout their lives – a task that has probably been successful for everyone here as chatting on the internet was almost certainly not taught when forum members were at school. We have all learnt to do it since!

Latin for example teaches one how to study and learn (common to all subjects) but more particularly how to recognise patterns and structures (conjugations, declensions, sentence structure etc) as well as providing important assistance in grammar generally. Even failing to master a subject can help to develop skills in working round the problem in future.

One could find similar reasons to justify any subject at any level, but I think the only reason for trying to gain so many qualifications today is that if one person or school does it, then the rest need to as well if not to seem out of step. I personally would consider studying fewer subjects but in more depth to be as useful, if not more so.

All have us have continued to learn and gather skills and information throughout our lives and careers – perhaps we have not used the content we learnt at school so much, but the techniques inherent in all learning are essential.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Surplus subjects learnt at school.

mine were:-

Football, Cricket and Woodwork.

Being the short skinny kid I often got put down in Football, in Cricket the bat tended defeat me.

I found that wood never obeyed my tools.

I really enjoyed Metal work and we were even allowed to forge hot metal (what were they thinking!).

Liked: English, Science, Geography and Technical Drawing then learnt French and German after leaving.

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:57:19

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I was taught Latin during my first year at secondary school, but when we moved because of my dad's job, the new school didn't teach it, The bit of Latin l did learn has stuck with me over the years. When we started taking foreign holidays in the 90's I was suprised to find that Spanish was closer to Latin than Italian.

For GCE I passed Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Geography, English Language, French and Art. Failed English Literature as I had no interest in it. Went on to pass Maths and Physics at "A" level. The only time I've used my french was helping a lost french tourist on holiday in Tenerife.

The Maths and science subjects helped me understand how the physical world works and complements the interest I have in Science Fiction where I have a collection of several hundred book, acquired over the years. It has also given me a logical way of thinking which was invaluble when it came to fault finding in my career in electronics.

With Geography, I know where most places are in the world without having to google it. As for art, well I can draw and paint reasonably well, but when it comes to appreciating some of the modern stuff, I get the distinct sensation of being conned.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I struggle to learn things that do not interest me, do the people who rack loads of exam qualifications have an interest in all of them or just soak stuff up because they are presented with it? One of my sons had an inspirational history teacher and for that year was interested in history, the Kids didn’t get enough exam passes and the teacher moved on. I think I would prefer my son to be interested in history which provides a lifelong interest in what surrounds us and what has happened to us and how we arrived in our present position. Unfortunately when you leave education your exam achievements are the first crude sift to the next stage. As I had a fair idea where I wanted to go the subjects that interested me came easily but I had to put in some effort to get enough to get started on the next stage. Luckily I have been offered every job I have ever applied for but that is only 4 and I took 3 of them. It doesn’t seem so easy these days, a friend has applied for 200 jobs since Christmas and not been successful yet, glad I’m retired.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 23/07/2019 09:40:45:

I am not certain that there are any universally 'surplus' subjects in school.

The only learning that is not appropriate is that which is either unsuitable for a particular student or badly taught.

…

Latin for example teaches one how to study and learn (common to all subjects) but more particularly how to recognise patterns and structures (conjugations, declensions, sentence structure etc) as well as providing important assistance in grammar generally.

…

I agree entirely with Nick apart – maybe – from the alleged advantages of Latin. When Latin was the language of education, it enabled international communication. But as a medium of communication Latin isn't good for commerce or technology.

Computer programming languages have extremely strict syntax, semantics, grammar and spelling. And computer programming is deeply into patterns and structures, all very formal with tight rules. Curious then that not only is learning Latin not essential to becoming a computer programmer, but in 40 years I don't think I met any computer programmers who had studied it!

I think the suggestion that Latin provides general guidance on Grammar or how to pronounce words is pretty much exploded. Maybe it has value in Italy, Spain, France, Romania and Portugal, even though these languages are based on vulgar Latin rather than academic Latin. Although English has many Latin words, there are dozens of other strong influences and, as a whole, English does not follow Latin grammar rules. It would be a sad thing if no-one learned Latin, but it doesn't have a utilitarian purpose.

There's a joke in one of the Patrick O'Brien novels (recommended). Captain Aubrey says something like: 'And what is wrong with the way the English pronounce Latin?' to which the educated Stephen Maturin replies: 'Nothing at all, except no one else can understand it.'

Dave

PS. Trouble with identifying surplus subjects at school is that we all know what worked for us but not what matters to others. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Religious Education was wasted on me, but I expect it helped the Archbishop of Canterbury to get started. I don't do a lot of Biology, but my GP does, etc etc.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Mike Poole on 23/07/2019 10:23:25:

I struggle to learn things that do not interest me, do the people who rack loads of exam qualifications have an interest in all of them or just soak stuff up because they are presented with it? One of my sons had an inspirational history teacher and for that year was interested in history, the Kids didn’t get enough exam passes and the teacher moved on. I think I would prefer my son to be interested in history which provides a lifelong interest in what surrounds us and what has happened to us and how we arrived in our present position. Unfortunately when you leave education your exam achievements are the first crude sift to the next stage. As I had a fair idea where I wanted to go the subjects that interested me came easily but I had to put in some effort to get enough to get started on the next stage. Luckily I have been offered every job I have ever applied for but that is only 4 and I took 3 of them. It doesn’t seem so easy these days, a friend has applied for 200 jobs since Christmas and not been successful yet, glad I’m retired.

Mike

Working today in engineering education with young people, the most common attitude of the learners is in the main ' Fire and Forget' in other words they cram hard for an exam to be able to pass it, but a few weeks down the line 'skill fade' sets in with little or no memory of the subjects taught.

We used to split our machining courses up into theory and practical, with an exam at the end, in some cases it could be quite a few weeks between the two parts being completed.

We had to stop doing that because the majority of learners had virtually no recollection of the earlier part, and even when told to revise before cominig in to the exam, expected to be given the answers on a crib sheet before going in – a school policy in some cases in order to keep pass marks up.

I too am an Calisthenic (may be the wrong word) Learner – I learn by 'Doing' I cannot sit and listen to someone ramble on for ages as it gets boring. in addition I'm mildly dyslexic, so Secondary School (Yes failed the 11+ too) was a total pain, but nobody back in the 60's knew what was going on – words were just a mess to me – it took a massive amount of effort just to be able to learn to read and write properly, let alone learn Latin et al.

Left school for a mechanical engineering apprentiship, getting in by submitting my CSE project – a Suart 10H which I built in engineering class over three years. I don't profess to being brilliant in any way shape or form and sometimes i do wonder if the phrase ' Can tell you the square root of a jar of pickles, but can't get the lid off' is applicable to some of the writers on this forum.

Perhaps one set of lessons that should never be classed as suplus within education is 'Equality and Diversity'

Regards

Edited By FMES on 23/07/2019 11:59:56

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:37:26:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/07/2019 19:03:11:

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

simul et usus ero alea satis prospera, podicem meum prae pulvere non videbis.

Well: Google translate came up with this from that text:-

and the use of the dice at the same time I will be quite successful, will make naked in comparison with the dust, Thou shalt not see my.

quite amusing in its own right I think.

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:38:56

I can sense you're almost certainly not implying that Google Translate is a meaningful guide to a translation's accuracy, but just in case you are, please see here.

That is a translation site manned by humans, and they actively welcome people wanting to check a Latin translation for accuracy.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/07/2019 10:35:48:

There's a joke in one of the Patrick O'Brien novels (recommended). Captain Aubrey says something like: 'And what is wrong with the way the English pronounce Latin?' to which the educated Stephen Maturin replies: 'Nothing at all, except no one else can understand it.'

Dave

Possibly more educated than is obvious – For years the English pronounced Latin with soft emphasis. eg sisero for Cicero unlike the Kickero pronunciation when I started to learn Latin in the 1960s. Similarly Caesar's supposed comment weni, weedi, weechi was superceded by veiny, veedi, veechi. (note: intentional phonetic bad spelling!)

One teacher at my school even admitted that he no longer taught Latin (he was a clergyman) because he only knew the old pronunciations.

Another bit of useless information to be forgotten ASAP!

Nick

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 23/07/2019 13:16:27

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 23/07/2019 13:14:01:

Posted by V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:37:26:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 22/07/2019 19:03:11:

Posted by Howi on 22/07/2019 13:13:05:

simul et usus ero alea satis prospera, podicem meum prae pulvere non videbis.

 

Well: Google translate came up with this from that text:-

and the use of the dice at the same time I will be quite successful, will make naked in comparison with the dust, Thou shalt not see my.

quite amusing in its own right I think.

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 09:38:56

I can sense you're almost certainly not implying that Google Translate is a meaningful guide to a translation's accuracy, but just in case you are, please see here.

That is a translation site manned by humans, and they actively welcome people wanting to check a Latin translation for accuracy.

 

Nothing serious about that it certainly amused me though!

I think online translators are a bit like calculators in that you need to have some understanding of what the correct output should be before using one.

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 15:54:05

Edited By V8Eng on 23/07/2019 15:54:24

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by 34046 on 23/07/2019 18:41:37:

Just watched a video by Richard Branson in which he says he was known as the dumbest boy at school. He suffered with dislexia so the blackboard was a total muddle to him. He left secondary school with no qualifications .

Bill.

I think it's safe to say that leaving school with no qualifications doesn't automatically mean that you aren't very intelligent, just as making billions of pounds through business ventures doesn't automatically mean that you are.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 23/07/2019 21:54:38

I think it's safe to say that leaving school with no qualifications doesn't automatically mean that you aren't very intelligent, just as making billions of pounds through business ventures doesn't automatically mean that you are.

If Richard Branson felt that he had been given the skills and ability to keep learning through life he may not have needed to remain in school and gain more qualifications if he did not intend to be applying for jobs with other people. If you look at the Stowe school  website (where he studied) you will see that they try to educate in a holistic manner rather than only enable pupils to get numerous qualifications.

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 23/07/2019 22:09:39

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

School (any type) is but a launch pad of learning for later life. Rather like the relay races (which I hated together with all other forms of sport), it's a case of grab the baton and run! I went to a Secondary Modern, having failed the 11+ and learnt useful things like simple plumbing and house wiring as well as woodwork and metalwork.Metalwork was simple lathe turning on a Boxford, hand work like marking out, hackswing and filing, some soft soldering and brazing. I continued to increase my metalworking knowledge with my first job, operating one of several shapers that the firm had. I moved on and used a drill and surface grinder. I bought an old flat bed Drummond and made some loco parts with it and lost them in a house move. A local club member bought the Drummond as his first lathe and I bought a brand new Super 7 from a toolshop in Brighton. I bought a new Sharp brand mill at an ME Exhibition and completely self – taught how to use it.

Point is, you never stop learning after leaving school, it being much easier if you have an avid interest in the subject.

Model engineering needs a certain maths ability, same as if you earn a living in engineering. I am reasonably proficient with maths and at spelling so I cringe every time that I read "arbor" incorrectly spelt with a spare "u" in it. That's only one example of bad spelling all too frequently.

Just wish journalists would stop using rarely used words to show off how clever that they think they are, e.g., "Abrogate" instead of "Stop." There are quite a few examples in the papers. So annoying to have to look up the rarities.

Many years ago I used to read the Sunday Telegraph, which I thought was quite a good quality paper, rather than the red top rags. Imagine the shock at reading that the Editor said todays youth are only interested in the 3 'd's- football, fighting and f***ing in that order and the last word was spelt in full.I nearly dropped the paper. Today, the world has moved on and one hears this used in common conversation, even by young teenage girls. Trouble is, I'm getting old and left behind.

 

Edited By DMB on 23/07/2019 22:21:11

[John Duncker 1Participant @johnduncker1]

Computer programming languages have extremely strict syntax, semantics, grammar and spelling. And computer programming is deeply into patterns and structures, all very formal with tight rules. Curious then that not only is learning Latin not essential to becoming a computer programmer, but in 40 years I don't think I met any computer programmers who had studied it!

Monkey patching programmer here who did Latin to O level under duress. Went on to learn to hack my way through Pascal C C++ and for my sins Dbase.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I actually wanted to make good use of my English and earn what I thought was good money – become a Compositor but failed to get into the print trade due to the closed shop system run by the unions. So did engineering for a while to Mothers disgust as she hated the metallic smell that I brought home. Done all sorts of things since; Rhine Army soldering, so learnt a few German words. Debt collecting, Security,as fill in job after redundancy til retirement. Previously, done various office jobs including bank – type work for a Simulator company. Having gained experience of handling currencies, I can say that the UK missed a trick. The Dutch Guilder notes had small triangles and circles filled with embossed? pimples to enable the blind to know the value of the note that they held.

Basic engineering training at school is not so relevant today so computer useage and programming is now more important in preparing youngsters for the big job search.

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

The theory says that education especially higher education was designed to show conspicuous consumption. To this end it was essential to study something of no monetary use i.e. I'm so rich I can study solely for effect and not to land a job.

Ideal subjects were dead languages, Latin, Greek, etc. Archeology, History, Geology, Geography, and so on. This is the reason that Pure Mathematics and Theoretical Physics were made separate from Applied Mathematics (and Physics) and could thus be included as Oxbridge degree subjects.

Of course, the prime minister excepted, not many of us can afford to study something that is not vocational and so we started to hear how Latin is actually useful because it teaches us how to name plants and describe medical complaints! Geography and History train the brain etc. As an aside, it is strange that while there are apologists for Latin there are none for Greek despite the extensive use of the Greek alphabet in Science and Engineering.

While at University I struggled with the Mathematics in my Engineering course and failed completely at partial differential calculus, I mean who would ever use this stuff? Subsequently I spent years acquiring and interpreting pressure transient data on gas wells in North Sumatra. I'm sure fate just wanted to push my face in things.

But back to school, which subject least useful? Definitely an O'level in Religious Studies (The Synoptic Gospels). I only had 7 subjects at O'level because I had dropped Latin. That meant I was studying Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, English, French, Technical Drawing and Religious Studies.

The sixth form was a chance to study what I liked and what I found easy. Is there a connection? And my A'level grades spelled the name of a well known Swedish pop group.

In the middle 70's, when Universities were essentially free, nobody seemed to want to study engineering so I waltzed into Imperial College.

Yes I am a little full of myself and you are free, though not obliged, to remind me of the fact.

Cheers, Colin

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

May I suggest that education is not solely concerned with acquiring new information, understanding or skills. It does change the brain of the person who is learning. Like the London Cabbie who does the knowledge and ends up with a physically altered brain where spacial cognicence is enhanced Latin for example changes the way the learner thinks so that logical thought, cerebral dexterity and the ability to handle complex ideas is enhanced. This remains even though the person may not utter or write a word of Latin from then on. Mathematics, Music and Art are others.

Clearly some subjects change the learner more than others but do not neccesarily discount subjects that have change who you are even though they were of no direct further use when you dropped them.

regards Martin

PS in answer to the original question French, because I was forced to give up biology and made to do it. I wound up becoming an electronics engineer via Physics, Maths and Art A levels, HND and CEI Part 2 and finally working for the last 30 years at a world class centre for Molecular Biology. So I guess I had the last laugh eventually.

 

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 24/07/2019 09:45:40

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