Saving the Planet … or is it ?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Going back to SOD's latest (03/10), if I just take 3000 as the expansion ratio of a coal fired set, that is 3 stages of 14.4 ratio, so the IP entry is 208 psi. I do know this is a bit crude, but it shows that somewhere along the HP set the pressure has dropped from 3000 psi to 1000, and probably not very far along. It should therefore be possible to change the blading in the HP or even replace it complete to work on 'nuclear' steam. I will take some convincing that a single SMR boils more water than a big coal fired set, so the condensers and cooling towers should be re-useable.

Yes the power output of my conversion would be lower, and replacing the whole setup might be a bit more efficient, but the depreciation on the existing turbines, alternators, cooling towers etc is over, and they are not cheap.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by duncan webster on 05/10/2021 12:50:34:

Going back to SOD's latest (03/10), if I just take 3000 as the expansion ratio of a coal fired set, that is 3 stages of 14.4 ratio, so the IP entry is 208 psi. I do know this is a bit crude, but it shows that somewhere along the HP set the pressure has dropped from 3000 psi to 1000, and probably not very far along. It should therefore be possible to change the blading in the HP or even replace it complete to work on 'nuclear' steam. I will take some convincing that a single SMR boils more water than a big coal fired set, so the condensers and cooling towers should be re-useable.

Yes the power output of my conversion would be lower, and replacing the whole setup might be a bit more efficient, but the depreciation on the existing turbines, alternators, cooling towers etc is over, and they are not cheap.

My reference is 'Turbine Steam Path Damage: Theory and Practice', published by the Electric Power Research Institute in 1999. Volume 2 is about the nasty things that happen to turbines, Volume 1 covers Thermodynamics and Turbine Design.

Unfortunately Volume 1 doesn't answer Duncan's point directly – engineering books rarely do, and I don't have the intellectual Horse Power needed to understand this one properly! However I suggest these two schematics pinched from it illustrate significant architectural differences between fossil fuel and nuclear turbine chains. Both are about 800MW.

First FOSSIL:

Second, NUCLEAR:

Lots of noise on the diagrams due to the re-heater and other details but big difference:

• Fossil has a High Pressure Turbine, linked to an Intermediate Pressure Turbine, linked to a back-to-back 2-flow Low-Pressure turbine, whereas
• Nuclear has no IP Turbine. Instead the HP turbine links direct to a 3-flow back-to-back LP turbine.

The reheat plumbing and design of the blades is somewhat different too. 'Design of HP turbine blades in nuclear units manifest similar design features as those in fossil units, for example using the same root attachment designs. HP blades in nuclear units are longer to handle the volumetric flows. Same comment made later about longer blades in nuclear LP turbines.

I suspect analysing the through-life cost of all the components in an ageing power station would soon dismiss ideas of plugging in new reactors to fossil generating sets, or vice-versa. Maintaining a high availability power station without breaking the bank isn't like keeping an old banger going for fun.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

NEWSFLASH :

On the same morning that we learned HRH was critical of those who talk not do …

This story came as a breath of fresh air : **LINK**

https://www.wired.com/story/growing-crops-under-solar-panels-now-theres-a-bright-idea/

[ signs of intelligent life on our planet ]

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This looks encouraging: **LINK**

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/using-recycled-cathodes-makes-better-lithium-batteries-study-finds/

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/10/2021 10:04:11:

NEWSFLASH :

On the same morning that we learned HRH was critical of those who talk not do …

This story came as a breath of fresh air : **LINK**

https://www.wired.com/story/growing-crops-under-solar-panels-now-theres-a-bright-idea/

[ signs of intelligent life on our planet ]

MichaelG.

Rhubarb grows in the dark, so cover Al the rhubarb sheds roofs with solar panels. More seriously, all new buildings should be roofed with solar panels, and many existing ones could be retrofitted

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

A study posted "on the Internet" stated if all roofs in big cities were white colored it would reflect 10 percent of the heat back. No one thing will fix it all, but a lot of little steps might help.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Yet another sign of intelligent engineering: **LINK**

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/british-tech-firm-ccell-renewables-solution-reversing-coastal-erosion-climate-change-1261510

Early results suggest it can take as little as six months of electrolysis, which is controlled and varied from London using information sent to and from the reefs via transmitters, to build up sufficient “rock” on the steel frames and allow the transfer of coral “polyps” which begin to form a functioning reef.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Thirty thousand are flying into Glasgow and dining on the finest cuisine from around the world to help save the planet

I'm always impressed by the sacrifices our leaders make in a crisis

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

This started with a comment about 10p bags for life. Waitrose now say : Our new 50p bags are twice as durable

So that must mean they last for two lifetimes. Look out, children, they are an investment and you may need to pay death duties if you inherit one. Or could it be that the bag-for-life lasts exactly as long as a bag-for-life lasts?

Cheers, Tim

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

No, Tim … The ‘bag for life’ concept was that the Supplier would replace a ‘dead’ bag with a new one : Meaning that the punter has a bag [not the bag] for life.

That was the whole point of me ‘outing’ Waitrose, in the opening post.

But I expect you knew that

MichaelG.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Ady1 on 22/10/2021 10:25:29:

Thirty thousand are flying into Glasgow and dining on the finest cuisine from around the world to help save the planet

I'm always impressed by the sacrifices our leaders make in a crisis

Allegedly, they are using diesel generators to charge the fleet of electric cars used to ferry the delegates around…

Rob

Links to https://www.nationandstate.com/2021/10/16/un-climate-change-conference-reportedly-using-diesel-generators-to-charge-teslas-being-used-as-shuttles/

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

With you ADY1 , never let you down do they ?

Traveling 'economy' class, eating in a McDonald's , not for them.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

There's nothing wrong with a Glaswegie deep fried mars bar and chips

they don't know what they're missing

ugh

Rounds off an evening after 12 pints of Tartan special and 20 number 6

Edited By Ady1 on 23/10/2021 19:02:52

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

We are now exhorted to throw out our gas boilers and fit heat exchange type machines. Boris is seeing a green image for the future which does not tie in with anyones situation.

A article in one of the papers today told of a renovation using a heat exchange system that was virtually useless in operation and needed substantial backup heating, aka, wood burner!

Apart from the initial cost of such an installation I understand that the amount of heat obtained is not a lot. I think I will see my gas boiler out by the time I leave this cold freezing country.

It is obvious that the planned but useless changes will cost Billions paid by us. It will have to be a dramatic machine to replace the normal gas boiler for domestic purposes. Pie in the sky I think.

Point is that the time scale for all these changes are not on our side, ie. Nuclear stations which take 20 years to design and build. Norway is very lucky having ample Hydro resouces, perhaps they can sennd us some spare.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

For Jockland air based heat exchangers sound ludicrous

I presume if you want a shower it will be an electric immersion heater job

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I live in dread of the noise pollution caused by the fans in all those cheap & nasty Air-Source Heat Pumps that we have been promised.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ This is a few years out date but worth a look/listen: 

https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pumps/noisy-heat-pumps/

… now extrapolate

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 23/10/2021 23:09:12

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

From today for 3 weeks Glasgow will become a mini fascist police state

All the homeless will be cleared from the streets

Security fences will go up all over the place

All the boy racers will be driven off the road, shops will close

Loads of essential roads will be closed

The city centre will become a police state ghost town

These government jollies are not a festival of human togetherness, they encapsulate the social apartheid mentality which separates them from us

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

From the little bit of information/news I have seen or heard heat exchangers are like 'the kings new clothes'? Obviously they will be talked up by the people making a fortune out of selling them but I don't think they are the answer, maybe someone who has got one can convince us.

Tony

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

A good start would be the 650 people so keen to impose them on 'us'.

And give 'us' the before and after installation/ running costs this time next year.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

In tye 70's I lived rurally and about 1 km away was a dog food processing plant. The workers were local and I would often be woken at night and could hear the whine of the fans of the freezer which unfortunately were pointed towards the houses.

Sublimal noise is disturbing as is the noise from the new generating windmills filling our countryside and offshore locations.

Read one report by a farmer who is paid good money for allowing these big fans on his land, but, since he has suffered illness and bothersome noise and wishes now he had not allowed the machines on his land. The price of progress! Bah.

[Mick BaileyParticipant @mickbailey28509]

I've been interested in heat pumps for a while – long before the phrase had become trendy. Old copies of Mechanix Illustrated and Popular Mechanics (USA editions) carried articles from the late 40s/early 50s and the premise was alluring; Take a bathtub full of iced water and pour in a kettle of boiling water. You still have a bathtub full of iced water, but it contains a kettle of boiling water. The challenge is to get it back out. Mainly back then the goal was to use well drilling techniques to get a heat exchanger buried vertically downwards.

More recently I've been considering heat pumps again. My neighbour has a setup in a similar sized house to mine and it consists of plant room, 700 metres of buried tubing over a large area, all the apparatus and a solar array. The radiators get warm, but never hot and in the depths of winter needs supplementary heating. Not a money-no-object installation, but not inexpensive. Plus he's a landowner and has a south facing solar array. His next step is to install batteries and charging facilities to try to improve the overall efficiency. There's no certainty on how long the equipment will last before it needs replacing, or parts become unavailable. Plus there are maintenance costs to consider.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

What happened to the solar panels that just heated water ? They seem to have died out

Roy

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mick Bailey on 24/10/2021 09:27:54:

I've been interested in heat pumps for a while – long before the phrase had become trendy. […]

.

Me too, Mick … but my limited exploration of the subject leads me to believe that if I had a stream conveniently running through my property, a ‘water-source’ heat pump would be ideal … but otherwise, the cost/benefit analysis doesn’t seem to work. [yet]

MichaelG

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

If I had a stream running through my house , I'd go hydro-electric , problem solved.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by J Hancock on 24/10/2021 11:41:59:

If I had a stream running through my house , I'd go hydro-electric , problem solved.

.

So now I suppose we need to define ‘stream’

MichaelG.

[Author]

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