Sanitizer

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

The 3 things we were always taught about any bacteria was. For a bacteria to survive it need Oxygen. Heat & moisture. ie water.

Steve.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

But of course the Coronavirus is not a bacterium. It is not alive in the usual sense, it is just a little package with some RNA inside. It does not need nourishment, and probably not even oxygen but has to survive undamaged long enough to find a host cell that it can take over.

So to get rid of the little suckers we need to disrupt them, and it seems like soap and water is actually the best way. Quite likely ultraviolet light would do the trick too, which would not be good for your skin but would be a good way to disinfect surfaces.

John

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

According to this Guardian hand sanitisers need to be at least 60% ethanol to work. A bottle I've got is 57.6%, so not much use. As most soap is solidified detergent (I think) how about just carrying a bottle of diluted Teepol around. I've got a bar of soap in my 'taking the dog for a walk' bag, along with endless poo bags and dog treats, as you can nearly always find a tap when you're out and about.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This appears to be reasonably authoritative: **LINK**

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/03/why-soap-preferable-bleach-fight-against-coronavirus/

I find it particularly interesting that the virus survives so long on stainless steel surfaces … which are what we tend to use for the sake of cleanliness

MichaelG.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by duncan webster on 19/03/2020 08:57:11:

According to this Guardian hand sanitisers need to be at least 60% ethanol to work. A bottle I've got is 57.6%, so not much use. As most soap is solidified detergent (I think) how about just carrying a bottle of diluted Teepol around. I've got a bar of soap in my 'taking the dog for a walk' bag, along with endless poo bags and dog treats, as you can nearly always find a tap when you're out and about.

I'd guess law enforcement is too busy to start looking for the odd home still. A little mod to a steam boiler is within the grasp of a lot of guys here….

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Which raises the question, if this 'thing' is so unique was it manufactured, ie manmade ?

[Guy LambParticipant @guylamb68056]

I don't think COVID 19 is unique, it belongs to recognised group of virus. A program on R4 this week suggested that the Chinese appetite for live and exotic meat, in some cases harvested from S America and Africa and transported live has allowed pathogens to mix and mutate at 'Warm Meat' markets that would never normally come into contact with one another. Food for thought. No pun intended.

Guy

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/03/2020 09:04:11:

This appears to be reasonably authoritative: **LINK**

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/03/why-soap-preferable-bleach-fight-against-coronavirus/

I find it particularly interesting that the virus survives so long on stainless steel surfaces … which are what we tend to use for the sake of cleanliness

MichaelG.

I'd guess SS stays 'cold' for longer hence survivabilty. its use is the ability to clean with assorted chemicals…

pgk

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I hope after this episode scientists and experts will get a better press in future. The 'what do scientists know?' brand of stupidity has been blown clean out of the water by this problem. When it comes to managing a pandemic, who do you trust: Man-of-the-people, pint in hand, telling you common-sense is enough, or Professor Whitty, who is an 'exspurt'?

The politicians job is different and perhaps harder. He has to persuade the population to follow best advice. Pretty difficult because – on average – we're much prone to hysterical over-reaction and head-in-the-sand denials. Often at the same time! And pathogens and probability aren't subjects most people understand beyond their half-misremembered schooldays, tabloid newspapers, uncritical internet research, and other unreliable witnesses. (Must check my future in the Women's Own Astrology page and then polish my crystals. )

Coranavirus is bringing out the best and worst in people. Lots of help being freely offered and most of the community pulling together. Unfortunately, we also have a threat to public order, conspiracy theorists, blame gamers, panic buying and criminals conning their way past elderly homeowners by claiming to be Health Officials.

My strategy is to wait and see what happens rather than worry about stuff that may never happen. I've thought about various combinations, but too much depends on who gets it, when they get it, and how badly they get it to make detailed plans. In the meantime practical measures are rather simple; minimise contact with other people (I've stopped snogging the postman) and wash hands frequently in soap and hot water. Self-isolate if already in poor health or if a cough & temperature starts up. Seek professional help if the cough & temperature turn nasty.

My guess is supermarket stocks will return more or less to normal sometime next week. Once panic buyers have packed their houses with bog-rolls and bleach, they'll have to stop buying! Apparently there was a big queue waiting for my local Sainsbury's to open yesterday and the shop was packed. Seems not to have occurred to the mob that they're supposed to be avoiding crowds…

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/03/2020 11:05:39

[egaParticipant @ega]

Is a virus which has reached the half-life stage still virulent?

[A SmithParticipant @asmith78105]

Half life? Does a virus have a half life? I thought that only applied to radioactive isotopes.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Robin Graham on 18/03/2020 22:27:34:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 18/03/2020 22:09:08:

Note that 100% alcohol is not fully effective. Between 50 and 80% is much better.

Robert G8RPI

Can you cite a source for that info Robert? I'm not saying you're wrong, but because there is so much misinformation about this stuff out there (sticking a hairdryer in your mouth?) it's useful to give authoritative sources to allow people to make informed judgements.

Robin

Hi,

There are several refernces available but I have direct knoowedge fron tests made during development of machine sterilisation systems (I have an invention for this https://patents.justia.com/patent/7247429). A lot depends on the organism, the Polio virus is very resistant. I did a quick search and more recent research shows 80% Ethanol 5% IPA (balance water / gelling agent) is mos effective aginst viriuses.
My main point, perhaps not made well, is that using neeat alcohol is not a good idea.This is because it is not effective an is more damaging to your hands.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 19/03/2020 12:48:21

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by ega on 19/03/2020 11:31:21:

Is a virus which has reached the half-life stage still virulent?

I have to concede that I'm way past halfway and indeed my virulence has reduced…..I suspect it might be awakened by a young blonde bimbo but realistically I'm not going to find one charitable enough….

pgk

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by A Smith on 19/03/2020 11:46:51:

Half life? Does a virus have a half life? I thought that only applied to radioactive isotopes.

It's often quoted for drugs. Your tablets from the doctor have a half life. Gives an indication if you forget to take them , is it too late.

Steve.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 19/03/2020 12:47:15:

Posted by Robin Graham on 18/03/2020 22:27:34:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 18/03/2020 22:09:08:

Note that 100% alcohol is not fully effective. Between 50 and 80% is much better.

Robert G8RPI

Can you cite a source for that info Robert? I'm not saying you're wrong, but because there is so much misinformation about this stuff out there (sticking a hairdryer in your mouth?) it's useful to give authoritative sources to allow people to make informed judgements.

Robin

Hi,

There are several refernces available but I have direct knoowedge fron tests made during development of machine sterilisation systems (I have an invention for this https://patents.justia.com/patent/7247429). A lot depends on the organism, the Polio virus is very resistant. I did a quick search and more recent research shows 80% Ethanol 5% IPA (balance water / gelling agent) is mos effective aginst viriuses.
My main point, perhaps not made well, is that using neeat alcohol is not a good idea.This is because it is not effective an is more damaging to your hands.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 19/03/2020 12:48:21

Thanks for the clarification Robert – I have no professional expertise in this area myself, but research I've read seems to indicate that the lower limit (50%) of alcohol you originally suggested might be too low to be effective against CV19. So no point in sacrificing cask-strength Scotch

Cheers, Robin.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Posted by A Smith on 19/03/2020 11:46:51:

Half life? Does a virus have a half life? I thought that only applied to radioactive isotopes.

It's a statistical thing – so no, a single virus doesn't have a half life any more than a single radioactive nucleus has a half life. All it means is that if you take a bunch of 100% 'active' viruses, radioactive nuclei, drug molecules or whatever, there will be a time at which half of them will have decayed. That is the half-life. The ones that remain will be as virulent, radioactive or therapeutic as ever, but in lower concentration.

Robin

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

No-one has suggested (or have they?) that if alcohol attacks the virus the best approach would be to take the alcohol internally. Single malt virus killer – sounds good to me.

Tim

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 20/03/2020 15:52:05:

No-one has suggested (or have they?) that if alcohol attacks the virus the best approach would be to take the alcohol internally. Single malt virus killer – sounds good to me.

Tim

Tim,

It's working for me, illness free and 100 bottles of wine left!

Jim

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

wrong thread!

Edited By duncan webster on 20/03/2020 16:39:15

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

We just got back from the supermarket with a litre of own brand bubble bath, which got put into some empty hand wash pump containers. Plain soap is just as effective as anything else. Kills 99% of germs applies to bacteria, not viruses.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[John Paton 1Participant @johnpaton1]

Posted by John Paton 1 on 18/03/2020 17:34:56:

And maybe add to that Isopropyl Alchahol which is what most of the gels smell of. I do believe there is an antiviral additive required and that antibacterial doesn't do what we currently need.

If anyone is unable to buy hand sanitiser, there is a specialist firm down in Dorset who is producing it – Wessex Chemical Factors. I don't mind plugging heir name as I have found them incredibly friendly and helpful and on occasion they have make up a cocktail to suit my requirements (true chemists).

I have just bought 5l of hand sanitiser , 5L of anti bac hand wash and 2L of antibac surface cleaner (to be diluted) for use in the village by people volunteering to assist neighbours. Delivery within Dorset is not dear but maybe worse by courier.

Currently I use their cutting fluids for lathe and mill, car screen wash, workshop hand cleanser (with granules), teak restorer (brilliant for garden furniture), pressure wash cleaning additive and have also obtained oil for Myford, Boxford and Centec lubrication from them (tell them what it should have and they will source the appropriate equivalent)

I think their website is currently undergoing 'redevelopment' so you might need to ring them and maybe request their catalogue.

I can confirm that the active ingredient in Wessex Chemicals Hand Sanitiser is simply Isopropyl Alchahol, presumably there is an inert gelling agent added. They advise that it should not be used as a substitute for soap and hot water washing as a primary defence for the very reasons stated by Simon above. There is good reason why Public Health England have given the advice they have and would all do well to get into that routine. (not easy when accustomed to eating tea and biscuits with cutting fluid under your nails!)

An NHS friend has asked me to spread he word that fuel pump handles at filling stations have been identified as a serious mechanism for spreading Coronavirus so wear gloves and wash hands asap afterwards. (Sadly Tescos have removed the gloves from the courtyard at our store, presumably because people are now stealing them!)

The Antibac surface cleaner referred to above is called AMB Clean and appears to have good antiviral properties too. As sold it is for industrial use but is safe for general use once diluted 1:50 (they think it still works at 1:100 or maybe greater dilutions) It has a complex list of ingredients and cuts greases well. 5L diluted 50:1 goes a heck of a long way so I have shared mine with friends! Not something you would want to splash in your eyes so care is needed, much as you would with bleach. I have diluted 1:3 before passing to others which happens to make subsequent dispensing into 500ml bottles very straightforward as one shot from the dispenser pump is then topped up with water to fill the bottle.

I would trust this product far more than the household cleaners you get in supermarkets which appear to be much simpler antibacterial and mould killing products and are probably of limited use against virus.

I suggest that anyone considering this type of product should discuss its properties with the supplier and satisfy themselves that it is right for their intended use as I am no expert on this.

Only mentioning in the absence of products on the supermarket shelves round here!!!

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Just a thought. I use Swarfega which seems to get rid of all sorts of oil, grease etc. Just wonder if it would dissolve the virus?

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 23/03/2020 05:40:33:

Just a thought. I use Swarfega which seems to get rid of all sorts of oil, grease etc. Just wonder if it would dissolve the virus?

Probably. Viruses are held together by a fatty layer. Remove that and the virus falls apart. So I would imagine that, like soap, Swarfega should remove that layer. Best to check with Deb though. I have just emailed them. If I get a reply I'll post it.

Russell

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Paton 1 on 22/03/2020 00:09:05:cuits with cutting fluid under your nails!)

An NHS friend has asked me to spread he word that fuel pump handles at filling stations have been identified as a serious mechanism for spreading Coronavirus so wear gloves and wash hands asap afterwards. (Sadly Tescos have removed the gloves from the courtyard at our store, presumably because people are now stealing them!)

Good point, also supermarket trolley handles.

I have a pack of babywipes and two bottles of hand sanitiser in the car (I'm not hoarding they've been in the car for ages!)

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 23/03/2020 09:41:04

[Author]

Posts