Retro Modelling help needed (and lathe)

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Hi all.

I am seeking assistance with a 'retro' modelling project. After some years of building vintage model aircraft with all the conveniences of a modern workshop, I find myself in need of a more pure and simple experience.

Tiring of technology in general, I find myself wondering what it was like to build these models when they were first designed and flown. I'm talking clearing out my modelling room of modern tools or materials, no super glue, no radio control, no lipo batteries, no computer, no CAD plans, no plastics, carbon fibre, electronics, no modern lathes, drills, dremels, etc.

I will be using tools that the average kitchen table modeller used in the past to 'handicap' myself so to speak. Can anyone enlighten me as to what tools, particularly the type and make, were available to the typical modeller? Nostalgia-fest anyone?

Oddly enough I'm also looking for a good useable Adept or Super Adept lathe, or it's equivalent so that I can make small parts, however roughly, and experience what it was like to be limited to this archaic level of technology. I may even dress the part! (I'm already half way there with a flat cap!) I have tried in the classifieds section but nothing has really come to light with the exeption of suggestions from a few very helpful people. (thanks guys).

I will also be constructing a small model railway for my two boys, with chicken wire and papier mache hills, home built locos and stock, something that looks like a model railway, Not the super accurate and amazing scale reproductions of today.

Can anyone wrack their brains and remember the far distant reaches of time from the 30's onwards? What facilities did people have then in an era of austerity and 'make do and mend' ? What drills (hand drills?) knives, pliers, lathes, etc were in use? what did a modellers room look like?

Any reminicences much appreciated!

Many thanks

Stewart.

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I like the cut of your jib Stewart, sorry I can’t help you in your quest. Personally I don’t have time for CAD/CNC in my workshop,sketch on a fag packet does for me.
Mark P.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Mark P,

Funny, thought that I was the only one working off a hand drawn pencil sketch on the back of an envelope!

Often Make It Up As You Go Along, otherwise known as Product Development!

In the 30s, there were probably only a few lathes about. A Super Adept, Gamages, or Zyto , with a Myford ML2 for the affluent. (A 90 year old friend recalls he and his father bringing home a ML2 on the bus, having paid about £1 for it. He only sold it a year or so ago)

Motors were a luxury, treadle being the usual motive power. Pictures of Drummonds often show the treadle connected to a flywheel which would not be out of place on a modern truck engine. Keep your other foot well clear!

Before even my time, when the ML7 was de rigeur for the keen model engineer.

Howard

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

It's the future Mark! I write using pencil or fountain pen. It slows me down and that is a good thing. Too much rushing around goes on, and not enough pleasure in the simple things. I enjoy my writing now. Or even the taste of a well chewed pencil end as I ponder an idea. To be honest some of my best plans, model builds, and even holidays have been scribbled out on the back of a beer mat! I'd use a fag packet but that's gone since they banned smoking in pubs

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Howard, I've just finished reading about an Aeromodeller in the 30's who used a treadle powered Brittannia lathe. He made his own engines from old air compressors abandoned on the Farnborough scrap heap!

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The workshop of a 60's aeromodeller should stink of dope and diesel fuel.

A Taplin Twin would help with the look.

Nothing electrical, free flight only or combat.

railways work well with old sacks and finishing plaster for hills

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Well I have the dope smell down, diesel has to stay outside by orders of my lady who tolerates most things, but my cans of D1000 are relegated to the garage.

Edited By Stewart Mason on 26/07/2017 13:06:27

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You don't need much to get something to fly. You could build a Keilcraft kit with a razor blade, pins, scissors, balsa cement, dope and a brush (cut wooden handle of brush short and keep it in the dope tin).

I've used no more than:

Craft knife or scalpel.

Junior hacksaw (for trimming pine).

Lots and lots of dressmaker's pins.

Flat wooden board.

Scissors.

A few needle files or bits of sandpaper.

Balsa cement ( a much maligned adhesive).

Tissue paste.

Blocks/weights to prop things at angles while they dry.

Spray bottle for shrinking tissue.

Cellulose dope.

Brush.

Dope thinners.

Fuel proofer (if you go IC)

Advanced tools might be a soldering iron, needles, bits of wire and thread.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The workshop of a 60's aeromodeller should stink of dope and diesel fuel.

Yup, and a dodgy stanley knife, uhu glue and plenty of balsa sheet and tissue paper

The you spend 4 months building it, take it to the hillside, chuck it up, watch it soar, watch it crash, then get the bus home with an armful of broken airplane (according to my uncle)

Enjoy !

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

For powered machinery, a treadle operated fretsaw was the thing.

Hand tools, files, scissors, tinsnips, soldering iron (either electric or heated on a paraffin blowlamp). Plenty of knives and chisels for carving wood formers. Hand drill and brace and bit for holes. Saws and hacksaws. Large and small vice.

Cutting out of 10mm thick metal using hacksaws and filing to shape was normal. I cut out the complete breech/trigger mechanism for a crossbow this way.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Must not forget the greaseproof paper laid on top of the plan to stop the balsa cement sticking the wood to the plan!

Would have been a better hobby if they had produced crash proof bendy balsa wood.

Balsa cement and dope, ah the legal highs of my childhood!

Edited By V8Eng on 26/07/2017 14:02:24

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

I have all the aforementioned, I've been building models for years. Flew at the free flight nationals a month or so ago. All the bits to make the models contribute nicely to a good old fashioned model shop smell in my building room!

I tend to use laser cut kits, but even that is 'outlawed' now in my quest for the original experience. It's 'die crushed' balsa printwood, or plans-built only nowadays for this hair shirt wearing purist!

Once I get my hands on my desired ancient small lathe I will have a go at some small modelling projects. I think it is de-rigeur from browsing old engineering and modelling magazines to do it while clamping a pipe between ones teeth.

Stewart.

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

It always surprises me how much filing went on, and the accuracy acheived. On visits to railway museums I am always blown away by the quality of the models that were produced with some really quite primitive tools. Even stuff from the very early days of the railway. Incredible what was produced in such conditions.

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

I have a gorgeous old Millers Falls (No7 I think) hand drill, which I converted to a winder for my rubber models. (basically took the chuck off and fitted a hook). I have used plenty of modern and not so modern hand drills, but nothing like the silky smooth mechanism of this one. I think it is 1930's ish.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Free Flight!

I still have vivid memories from the 1950s of model flyers bouncing across Epsom Downs on their pedal cycles, chasing after their rapidly vanishing model planes.

Edited By V8Eng on 26/07/2017 14:17:12

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Just as Neil lists in his post, all basic stuff, not been into r/c modelling for some years now but I did not use much more than that. A dremel jigsaw was a luxury but well worth it.balsa glue, pva glue, Araldite have been out for Donkey's years. I can remember when the first 5 min epoxy came out, Devcon I think it was called, revolutionised field repairs.

When you try and go back to yesteryear, you will appreciate the advances that have been made in the last 10 to 15 years.

Have fun and remember to collect those plastic bags you now have to pay 5p for, handy for putting the model into after a flying session

[Maurice Cox 1Participant @mauricecox1]

This is a bit before the 1930's, but I have four bound volumes of "Junior mechanics and electricity" from 1914 and 1915. The range of things that were undertaken with very simple tools is astonishing. Of course, some of the readers had access to lathes, but not all by any means. One contributor made a model of an electric railway locomotive, one of the double ended type with a cab in the centre. He says he had to file the buffers from bits of brass, and "it took a long time to get them sufficiently round". The books also contain dimensioned drawings for a couple of rubber powered model aircraft; a "rise off the ground tractor biplane" and "A model airplane that will fly for five shillings". The latter has a sort of "A" shaped frame and twin rubber motors and propellors. There also drawings and instructions for a gauge 1 spirit fired 0-4-0 steam loco which the author says "that a lathe is not needed but would be useful for turning small parts". If these are of interest, PM me with your address, and I will copy them and post them to you. It may take me a few days to do it due to "stuff", but you will get them.

I also have a Stuart Turner No.1 engine dating from before 1918 (Whitworth threads) in which the slide valve cavity was produced with a hammer and chisel. There is also a 1/32" keyway in a 1/8th" shaft, produced in the same way. It is not perfect by any means but I would not care to attempt it.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

My Grandfather made his marine steam engines and ship parts with a Colchester Britannia treadle lathe, he also carried out milling work, which my Brother now has in his loft, both my Brother and I used it as our first lathe until we bought newer ones, all of his other work was done with hand tools, he made all of his screws, nuts and bolts.

Martin P

[Maurice Cox 1Participant @mauricecox1]

Hi Stewart. I have copied some pages from those books as promised, but I have been having computer problems, and it has deleted all my messages! Can you PM me your address again please, and I will get them in the post. Sorry about this. Thanks

Maurice Cox

[IanTParticipant @iant]

My KeilKraft Hurricane (or was it a Spitfire?) never flew very well I'm afraid. After the effort to build it, it was a great disappointment, so I gave up and went into Rocketry instead.

A large (1/-) rocket had four (3d) rockets strapped around it, and a balsa tail-fin was attached to the main "stick". The top of the main rocket was removed and a space capsule containing three wood lice was placed inside (wrapped in its parachute). The whole 'ship' was painted with some aluminium paint found in Dad's shed, plus some red stripes (Humbrol red).

This was taken to the centre of Stoke Park (Guildford) and the blue touch paper of the larger rocket lit. The whole lot lifted three foot, hovered briefly and then (when the other rockets fired) took off to what looked like a pretty good height – with the capsule being fired at the top of trajectory. Even the parachute opened!

Unfortunately, we were unable to recover our Astronauts as the Park Warden chased us for some way over the by-pass and along the river….

So Stewart, wait till October – buy some rockets, balsa and aluminium paint and I can guarantee you will have much more fun than just building a KeilKraft kit (and save on your pocket money too). In terms of equipment, just a penknife and (of course) your running shoes!

Regards,

IanT

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I suppose a lot of us in our younger days experimented with rocketry, we used to get the biggest rocket that we could and strap a couple of bangers to it so that their fuses were lit by the rocket jet effluent, by the time the main propulsion ceased and the rocket was on its way down then the payload of bangers would explode. We moved on to producing explosive mixtures which we laid on the railway lines and the extreme weight of the train passing over would detonate it, very dangerous but we were young and immune to dangers or so we thought.

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In the '30s a model engineer might have picked up a treadle round bed Drummond from a war widow. Many of those lathes still available.

An aero modeller would have used his late grandpa's old razor as a knife for spruce and bamboo as balsa for modellers was probably rare and expensive. Tissue paper was common but heavier than available now and well thinned shellac also readily available. Rubber for the motor was available as pneumatic tyres for bicycles had been around for decades.

In the sixties I used a safety razor blade with a bit of brass sheet wrapped around it held by a 4BA bolt through the hole they have in the middle. It must still be around my workshop somewhere.
WRT trains when I bought a fly press it came with some steel dies that were for pressing into cardboard to emboss the strapping on the sides of H0 coal waggons, but I gave them to a railway modeller.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stewart Mason on 26/07/2017 10:29:28:

Hi all.

…

I find myself in need of a more pure and simple experience.

…

Can anyone wrack their brains and remember the far distant reaches of time from the 30's onwards? What facilities did people have then in an era of austerity and 'make do and mend' ?

…

Any reminicences much appreciated!

Many thanks

Stewart.

I hope you're going to do the retro experience in full! As kids my mum and dad both made toilet paper by cutting up old newspapers and threading the sheets on a string loop. Unlit outside lavatory of course, particularly unpleasant on a cold wet night. Males peed in a bucket and the stale urine was carried 1/2 mile to the allotment for use as a fertilizer. Dress up warm with mittens for hobby work in the scullery because only the kitchen and dining room had coal fires. Brush your teeth with Bicarbonate of Soda, and make your own animal glue by boiling down the cat. Hours of fun to be had!

Dave

[Maurice Cox 1Participant @mauricecox1]

Hi Stewart; I promised you some photocopies, and I have lost your address! Could youPM it to me again please. The copies are all ready to go.

Maurice

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