Not enoughh CO2 ?

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

And not a single mention on any media that it is a vital component for our nuclear stations.

Only for food and killing animals.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by J Hancock on 22/09/2021 10:17:32:

And not a single mention on any media that it is a vital component for our nuclear stations.

Only for food and killing animals.

Mentioned on the BBC website.

I see non-one condemns the CO2 produced in brewing alcohol..
As for fertilizer production also a Beeb article abut one chap who is onto composting and rightly suggest we should compost dead bodies -a suggestion I made years ago in a letter to the DT editor 'mince up your granny and spray her on the meadow' – which surprisingly was never published..

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I sincerely hope that the CO2 used to cool AGRs is recycled rather than spewing C14 into the atmosphere!

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Yes, the particulates are filtered out ,not sure if the CO2 is 'recycled' these days.

Certainly 'losses' are made up by 'new' CO2.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I see non-one condemns the CO2 produced in brewing alcohol.

I don't know if it is a general practice in the brewing sector, but on an episode of the "Inside the factory" TV program than covered production of cider that company recovered the CO2 released during fermentation & used it to carbonate the finished product when it was canned.

Nigel B.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I can remember many years ago, visiting the then ICI site on Teeside and noticing that in the area surrounding the fertiliser plant, not even grass or weeds would grow.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by mgnbuk on 22/09/2021 11:38:35:

I see non-one condemns the CO2 produced in brewing alcohol.

I don't know if it is a general practice in the brewing sector, but on an episode of the "Inside the factory" TV program than covered production of cider that company recovered the CO2 released during fermentation & used it to carbonate the finished product when it was canned.

When I dealt with Whitbread thirty years ago, the suggestion was that brewers have more CO2 than they know what to do with. We certainly got our cylinders for the dispensers for nothing.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think it has been said on here before that welding CO2 came from brewing. Probably things have changed a lot over the last 30 years and new uses for it found because it was cheap have upped the demand.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by John Haine on 22/09/2021 10:30:30:

I sincerely hope that the CO2 used to cool AGRs is recycled rather than spewing C14 into the atmosphere!

Carbon dioxide has no bearing on radio isotope C-14. Carbon 14 is actually produced from nitrogen-14, not carbon 12.

It is produced, naturally, at the outermost layers of the atmosphere by cosmic radiation interaction with nitrogen, so presumably it is produced ‘industrially’ by irradiating metal nitrides in an atomic pile.

I expect radio-carbon dating will, if still in use long into the future (there are other methods available these days), need to be modified to take into account the man-made fraction produced over the last few decades.

Dunno how it arrived at The Radiochemical Centre at Amersham (now Amersham International), but very high specific activity Barium Carbonate was the source of carbon-14 dioxide in the organic synthesis process for so many compounds. I analysed the Barium Carbonate (and lots of other radio-isotope compounds), back in the 1960s.

Edited By not done it yet on 22/09/2021 13:33:09

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

I have just opened my British Gas Evolve website, the account has been set to zero , there are now a huge number of ' new tariffs ' to choose from. All to suit the 'new' prices.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

In the context of industrial gasses British Oxygen Company hasn't been British for a while, Air Products has been Air Liquide and I have a feeling that both are now Linde ? Do WE make anything now ?

Linde in the late 1800s were big in refrigeration, Rodolf Diesel worked for them and his understanding of thermo dynamics led to him wanting to improve the thermal efficiency of the gas engine. The fact that the fuel ignited due to the heat of compression was just a benefit, he had not setout to make the sparking plug redundant, or avoid all the problems inherent in early spark ignition systems. Noel.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Nigel B

Went on an organised visit to a local Sussex Brewery a few years ago, it has been on the same site since the late 1700’s, in the brewing room were rows of tanks bubbling away fermenting, there was no way in which the CO2 produced could be collected as the tanks were all open at the top, beautiful aroma in there. I presume some brewery’s do collect the CO2 produced but by no means all do, so it seems we are at the mercy of the industrial giants that can blackmail the government. Dave W

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

By what I was told today, petrol is also in short supply in certain parts of the country.

Regards

Gray,

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

As ever there seems more behind this story than meets the eye at first glance. Most news articles are blaming this on record high gas prices with little explanation of the reasons for the high prices beyond increased demand due to emerging from the pandemic. However if you dig deeper there is a lot more to it. Gas reserves (gas in storage waiting to be used) are at a low, below 2018 levels, the figures don't show a drastic drop since restrictions have released / enconomy has recovered. But neither do they show a significant increase during the peak pandemic period which suggests there was little down turn in demand either. The lack of decreasing demand may be linked to lower than normal wind speeds across Europe leading to greater use of gas in electricity generation. Apparently reserves are low due to reduced export of gas from Norway and Russia (plus some allegations Russia is holding back supplies!). Norway and Russia combined, supply around 40% of European gas consumed. Previously in the UK and Europe when gas prices were high electricity was generated by coal powered stations – we all know where that has gone – few resources left and reliant now on imported fuel.

This article is the latest (August 21) I found with future predictions tells an interesting story.

https://www.worldoil.com/news/2021/8/6/natural-gas-prices-surge-as-energy-transition-driven-demand-outstrips-supply

For those unwilling or unable to follow the link a very broad executive summary is that gas has been seen as a transition fuel to zero emissions as dirtier fuels are being phased out however not being exactly clean itself there has been unwillingness globally to invest in new projects to increase the supply to meet the demand.

There is some irony here that the drive to green has produced a bonanza for the gas market with other technology lagging in implementation and capacity. The demand for gas is set to continue increasing and in Asia demand due to outstrip supply so the price issue isn't going to change any time soon! With increasing drive to electricity but without an exponential expansion in renewables to support, electricity prices are set to follow the current trend especially considering the steady increase in demand for electricity from ev's and similar initiatives (no gas boilers in new houses). Green hydrogen is no silver bullet either because a 20MW electrolysed only produces 3000t a year and there are not many of those plugged in right now.

Dont expect your bills to drop any time soon! The really odd thing in all this is CO2 is one of the pollutants we are striving to eliminate but is so widely used in the supply chain it is set to become more expensive – unintended consequences?

Paul.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Don't forget, we lost 1GW with Dungeness, then 1GW with the French link, then 4GW no wind.

All made up by gas, to make electricity.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Posted by KWIL on 21/09/2021 10:30:01:

The bottomless pit of subsidies to state owned assets? No not again.

All we need now is for Mr P to stop gas supplies.

Here in Illinois the state subsidizes wind and solar power. The state also subsidizes nuclear power so they can be cost competitive with wind and solar. Madness.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Just highlights what a brilliant decision France made back in the 50/60's to invest in nuclear/hydro projects.

Led by technocrats , not bankers.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Oven Man on 21/09/2021 09:09:41:

Looks like wev'e run out of wind recently as well. When are we going to realise that the most reliable source of renewable energy is tidal power. I am not anti wind power but I do consider it to be only an interim solution to our energy "problems".

Peter

Agree with tidal power, but I guess it's not considered because none of the politicians have any financial interest in it!

Wind power is a joke, but creating wealth for a few!

Until the world accepts it's vastly overpopulated, the demand for everything will perpetuate all these problems and no doubt cause other's in the future. Tackle the cause, stop tinkering with the effects…..some hope of that?

Edited By RMA on 27/09/2021 10:31:35

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Graham Meek on 22/09/2021 18:29:23:

By what I was told today, petrol is also in short supply in certain parts of the country.

Regards

Gray,

Lots of panic buying where I live. Yesterday my local Tesco ran out of fuel and so were the three independents between me and my son (10 miles away). I'm sure no forum members have disgraced themselves by topping-up unnecessarily, but it seems the rest of the nation's drivers are a mob of selfish, hysterical wets! So much for Dunkirk spirit. I think corporal punishment is the answer: six of the best on the forecourt for anyone who queued for less than a third of a tankful!

The problem is due to HGV Driver Shortages and a government minister assuring us there's no shortage of petrol at the refineries. I wonder how many of those queuing realised that electric cars are immune to this problem – they're recharged at home…

Dave

[JAParticipant @ja]

Since this topic has moved on to fuel, I have a simple question.

When will the refineries start shutting down because they have run out of storage capacity?

Looking back, I suppose all this was inevitable with "just in time", efficient working, tight timetables etc. There is not the slack in the system (whatever system you look at) to accommodate real problems.

JA

Edited By JA on 27/09/2021 11:46:05

[RobinParticipant @robin]

I don't quite understand how CO2 can affect the climate without warming it???

"Overall the globe has cooled substantially since the last El Nino ended in 2016, and it now appears the cooling trend will persist another year as the CFSv2 is forecasting a La Niña to continue into spring 2022".

A bit of a cheat there because there was a spike in the 2016 temperature, but with the global warming freaks getting the screaming ab dabs about anywhere on the globe having warm weather, you can't really blame them.

The extra CO2 continues to have a dramatic effect on my garden where the plants are on a binge and are growing quite out of control. My lawn has tussocks.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robin on 27/09/2021 11:47:02:

…

"Overall the globe has cooled substantially since the last El Nino ended in 2016, and it now appears the cooling trend will persist another year as the CFSv2 is forecasting a La Niña to continue into spring 2022".

…

Robin, that's a blog misusing NOAA data, fake news! The source is actually about forecasting weather anomalies, and climate deniers won't like what it really says about the likelihood of unusually bad weather in the USA next year.

This graph shows global temperature to be rising and is cause for concern because it appears to be accelerating in line with theory, which is bad, bad, bad for everyone.

As climate deniers have successfully delayed attempts to reform our foolish ways over the last 30 years, humanity is stuck with the consequences. Robin thinks CO² helps his garden grow: I'm worried about the risk of Bangladesh flooding. There, rising sea-levels could create 163,000,000 refugees at the same time as North Africa becomes uninhabitable due to desertification.

When the experts predict Climate Catastrophe, they really mean it. I used to think global warming could be managed sensibly into a soft landing, now I believe the future is out of control. The milk is spilt. Prime Minister Macmillan was once asked why governments failed to deliver on their manifesto promises. He replied, 'events dear boy, events…' We are three square meals away from chaos!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/09/2021 14:05:54

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

I have a book , Resources and Man, produced by the National Academy of Sciences , started in '66, printed in '69.

Written before ' the Internet' , Containerisation , and China , became the 'go to' for everything manufactured ,

It foresees and predicts everything that is happening , now , with chilling accuracy..

With resources finite , the conclusion is inevitable.

I quote , " The inescapable conclusion is that both population control and better resource management are mandatory and must be effected with as little delay as possible."

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/09/2021 11:20:22:I wonder how many of those queuing realised that electric cars are immune to this problem – they're recharged at home…

Dave

Any smug feeling is destroyed by the hike to come in leccy pricing which hardly encourages the uptake.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/09/2021 14:05:

This graph shows global temperature to be rising and is cause for concern because it appears to be accelerating in line with theory, which is bad, bad, bad for everyone.

As climate deniers have successfully delayed attempts to reform our foolish ways over the last 30 years, humanity is stuck with the consequences. Robin thinks CO² helps his garden grow: I'm worried about the risk of Bangladesh flooding. There, rising sea-levels could create 163,000,000 refugees at the same time as North Africa becomes uninhabitable due to desertification.

When the experts predict Climate Catastrophe, they really mean it. I used to think global warming could be managed sensibly into a soft landing, now I believe the future is out of control. The milk is spilt. Prime Minister Macmillan was once asked why governments failed to deliver on their manifesto promises. He replied, 'events dear boy, events…' We are three square meals away from chaos!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/09/2021 14:05:54

Whatever was going on between about 1898 and 1910 we need to do more of? What caused the peak around 1942? What happened pre 1880?

Paul.

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