Not enoughh CO2 ?

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Apparently, the carbon left over from the natural gas used to make ammonia (fertiliser) gives carbon dioxide used in the food industry. High gas price = shut down fertiliser plant = no CO2 = food shortage.

We have been told for years, that there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere, so why don't we extract it? The answer is probably that the actual amount is so miniscule at about 450 parts per million, that it's not an economic proposition.

I will now retire to my nuclear shelter.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Most probably cheaper as a bye product? The worrying thing is that a minister says 'don't worry we will sort it', on another note this situation or a variation on it has been widely predicted for years not the CO2 issue but our reliance on foreign energy.

Tony

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Add to that , major users of CO2 are…………..our remaining AGR nukes !

No CO2……….no electricity.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Nationalisation of our energy sector is the only real answer

Privatisation is for things like cars and shoes

Water and energy, like healthcare, are state level industries

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The CO2 produced from methane is much the same as burning fossil fuels. Methane is used to generate (dirty) hydrogen for the Haber ptocess where hydrogen and nitrogen are combined at high temperature and presure to produce Ammonia.

There is so much process CO2 that could be used (but the gases would need to be ‘scrubbed’ and further purified far more than that from methane usage. Think here every power station, cement works, etc.

The Haber process requires very much refined feedstock as the catalysts must not be ‘poisoned’, so it is the easier way to go.

The most effective way to absorb CO2from the atmosphere is probably by photosynthesis – but the human race is destroying forests at an alarming rate. How more stupid can the human race get? It is a bit like ‘burning your bridges’,IMO.

450ppm might seem miniscule to you but in the scenario of heating the whole planet, it is far from miniscule. Think here that CFCs (although in ppm, too) were totally responsible for destroying the protective Ozone layer in the atmosphere. If CFCs had not been banned, and had been continually released into the atmosphere at an ever increasing rate, there would now be a huge problem for life on Earth. That problem took only a few years to be diagnosed and stop further emissions, but the Ozone layer has still not yet recovered.

Nitrogen, the atmospheric component for the Haber process happens to be about 800,000ppm of the air that we breathe – nearly 2000 times more abundant than CO2.

Air is liquified to produce pure gases but do we really need to process 2000 times the volume for each volume of CO2, when a feedstock of a thousand (and more) concentration is available from current gas streams? I think it is either in Spain or Portugal where electricity generation exhaust gas (or some other industrial process) is being used for CO2 capture. Not sure what they do with the captured CO2, but likely used in industry/agriculture in some way.

Edited By not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:06:27

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It needs to be "food grade" CO2 as well

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

Looks like wev'e run out of wind recently as well. When are we going to realise that the most reliable source of renewable energy is tidal power. I am not anti wind power but I do consider it to be only an interim solution to our energy "problems".

Peter

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The wind situation is amazing, I have never seen 2 months of dead calm weather like this before up in jockland

It's fabulous, warm and almost continental, so luxurious

Totally useless for energy production though

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

CO2, no problem. Use extracted atmosphere from houses of parliament. One weeks storage should last months.

Regards Ian.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Circlip on 21/09/2021 09:17:55:

CO2, no problem. Use extracted atmosphere from houses of parliament. One weeks storage should last months.

Regards Ian.

A bit political, that. But from there it is only hot air? The living-dead don’t need to actually breathe?

[norm nortonParticipant @normnorton75434]

Many years ago, when we had cardice (solid CO2) deliveries, the CO2 had come from distiller's group. There must be masses of it produced by brewing but I guess the fertiliser by-product has been cheaper.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:03:34:

…

How more stupid can the human race get?

…

No need to be more stupid than we already are! Give up energy today for reasons I don't understand? Party on, and sod the consequences. And anyway, as we'll all be dead before the result of burning gigantic quantities of fossil fuels gets really bad, there's no reason for silly old duffers to change.

All you have to do is denounce 'Greens', 'Tree-huggers', scientific consensus and all the evidence that anything is wrong. Unfortunately the evidence of climate change is still quite subtle, and many people won't believe it until they are personally effected. Central London flooded twice in 10 years might do it, and the probability of it happening is rising!

Thing is humanity are plain bad at assessing risk. This is true even when people understand the problem, and worse when there are vested interests. When it comes to risk we are all thickos, but some are thicker than others. Some people really believe the world is flat, and the moon landings were faked, and that Stalin was an Uncle Joe.

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Giving billions of subsidies to private energy companies and receiving zero ownership rights in return is the best idea, a great policy

Just like paying someone to build you a house and then renting it from them

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

It seems the current problem of energy supply companies affected by the rise in gas prices going bust is because the proliferation of energy companies happened because energy was cheap on the wholesale market so it was like a casino with some companies making large profits, but because they didn’t invest their profits to cover the day when energy costs would rise, they have now become insolvent with no capital to carry them through. I agree with Ady1 this scenario would be much different if the energy industry was under state control. As it is with private companies running industries such as energy, as consumers we not only pay the cost for the energy but we also have to pay shareholders dividends, and it looks in the present case that as taxpayers we will also be paying via the Treasury to sort out the consequences of the bankrupt companies. Dave W

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The bottomless pit of subsidies to state owned assets? No not again.

All we need now is for Mr P to stop gas supplies.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Back to the food shortage problem; Isn't it possible to change over to nitrogen in the packaging? I seem to remember that's what was used in the past.

Another possibility is just to use air from which most of the oxygen has been removed. A molecular sieve is used to extract oxygen from the air for medical use.

Russell

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 21/09/2021 10:36:23:

Back to the food shortage problem; Isn't it possible to change over to nitrogen in the packaging? I seem to remember that's what was used in the past.

More sensible than trying to extract CO2 from the air.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

A large part of the food industry shortage is the use of CO2 'anaesthesia' pre-slaughter – since it's heavier than 'air' one can herd animals into a depression filled with the stuff. Whilst still not exactly humane, it's better than most alternative ways of killing pigs for food.

pgk

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 21/09/2021 08:31:07:

Apparently, the carbon left over from the natural gas used to make ammonia (fertiliser) gives carbon dioxide used in the food industry. High gas price = shut down fertiliser plant = no CO2 = food shortage.

We have been told for years, that there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere, so why don't we extract it? The answer is probably that the actual amount is so miniscule at about 450 parts per million, that it's not an economic proposition.

I will now retire to my nuclear shelter.

Cant afford nuclear shelter so a dark corner will have to do

H

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/09/2021 09:55:04:

Posted by not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:03:34:

…

How more stupid can the human race get?

…

No need to be more stupid than we already are! Give up energy today for reasons I don't understand? Party on, and sod the consequences. And anyway, as we'll all be dead before the result of burning gigantic quantities of fossil fuels gets really bad, there's no reason for silly old duffers to change.

All you have to do is denounce 'Greens', 'Tree-huggers', scientific consensus and all the evidence that anything is wrong. Unfortunately the evidence of climate change is still quite subtle, and many people won't believe it until they are personally effected. Central London flooded twice in 10 years might do it, and the probability of it happening is rising!

Thing is humanity are plain bad at assessing risk. This is true even when people understand the problem, and worse when there are vested interests. When it comes to risk we are all thickos, but some are thicker than others. Some people really believe the world is flat, and the moon landings were faked, and that Stalin was an Uncle Joe.

Dave

Some would take that as a challenge.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well over here in the Canary Islands it is a issue. The volcano in Las Palmas is spuing huge amounts out at the moment. Not good I guess. Not to mention that the earth is getting hollowed by the day.Steve.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:31:29:

Posted by Circlip on 21/09/2021 09:17:55:

CO2, no problem. Use extracted atmosphere from houses of parliament. One weeks storage should last months.

Regards Ian.

A bit political, that. But from there it is only hot air? The living-dead don’t need to actually breathe?

No politics involved at all, it's a big room with all involved and strangely enough, I was led to believe we exhale CO2? One worrying aspect is that the largest producer in this country is American owned together with many more and prospective purchases "over here"

Regards Ian.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Talking of ‘politics’ … This, from today’s News, reads awfully like successful blackmail:

The deal will mean that the government will pay tens of millions of pounds to a US fertiliser firm to reverse its decision to shut two plants which the company said had become uneconomic because of rising gas prices.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Amusing to watch one little company holding an entire country to ransom

and with the approval of the leaders of that country too

Pay up on the ransom and even make up some excuses for your corporate buddies lol

Presumably the ransom will be paid in Bitcoin

Interesting times

Edited By Ady1 on 22/09/2021 10:17:05

[Author]

Posts