Mail order ban on bladed products

[colin wilkinsonParticipant @colinwilkinson75381]

[colin wilkinsonParticipant @colinwilkinson75381]

Section 15 bans mail order of bladed products, definition is a bit vague, basically anything that can cut skin. Could this include saw blades, chisels, lathe or milling tools, etc? there is a petition to amend. Colin

**LINK**
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2017-2019/0232/cbill_2017-20190232_en_2.htm

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The definition of 'bladed articles' is:

Meaning of “bladed product” in sections 15 and 16

(1) Subject to subsections (2) to (4), in sections 15 and 16 “bladed product” means

an article which—

(a) is or has a blade, and

(b) is capable of causing a serious injury to a person which involves cutting

that person’s skin.

Presumably this could include chisels, but I doubt it would apply to lathe tools.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

That's going to scupper mail order shaving suppliers then. A circular saw blade by its name is a blade and would certainly cut skin and the same for a bandsaw blade or hacksaw blade. None of these would make a practical weapon but would be caught by the very loose definitions. As almost anything can be weaponised it is very difficult to come up with a definition that would not include everyday innocent items. A Stanley knife is probably in everyone's tool kit but has a small blade and makes a devastating weapon in the wrong hands. People who want a weapon can turn all sorts of tools into an improvised weapon and most people have access to a kitchen drawer that is a ready made arsenal. It seems a small problem will inconvenience the law abiding many as usual and not solve the issue.

Mike

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Mike, you put it in a nutshell, why do we tolerate these inappropriate laws that come as knee jerk reactions, Obviously designed to enhance the public standing of those who dream them up!!!

Dave W

[David TParticipant @davidt96864]

There is an ongoing discussion about this on the ukworkshop forum. Members are being encouraged to contact their MP (I admit I have yet to do so).

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/topic112718.html

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Indeed!

Weapons are everywhere..an umbrella with a sharper point? A walking stick or a few coins and a sock. I daresay sharpening the edge of a credir card could scar a face badly. At some point we either have to deal with the causes of violence or have a police force that actually catches the perpetrators and a system that removes them from the future

pgk

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

A short length of course wood cutting bandsaw blade fitted with a wooden handle makes a weapon which I would not like to face,in the wrong hands. I made one to use as a pruning saw,and very well it worked too. Just imagine what it would do to your neck !

The fact is that anything can be turned into a weapon,even an empty soft drinks can. If you dont believe it,ask the

S-A-S,it,s part of their training..Even an empty dog food tin can be turned into a hand axe,good enough to split your skull,so,where do you draw the line ? What about your good old scriber?,perfect for putting out someones eye !

Just another example of a flash-in-the-pan idea never thought through. Typical !

Forgot to mention the good old standby—- the hammer ! Will that be the next to be banned under the heading of "Blunt items"?

Here we go again.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Er as I read it, the provision bans delivery by mail order of blades to persons under 18. It's not a blanket ban likely to effect adults buying tools.

Does ban certain products later, eg:

“(s) the weapon sometimes known as a “zombie knife”, “zombie killer knife” or “zombie slayer knife”, being a blade with—

(i)a cutting edge;

(ii)a serrated edge; and

(iii)images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence.”

Zombie knives are designed to kill people not peel potatoes. I'm not happy about them being easily available to drunken yobs temporarily off their heads on testosterone.

Dave

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

30yrs or so ago I was an investor in a plant & tool hire Co' that subscribed to the Hire Association Europe as an industry trade association.

Back in those days the industry was very much still in its infancy, finding it's feet & not 100% sure of its future direction.

We very much took the HAE for granted & subscribed mainly because they researched, formulated & provided a set of T&C's for the contracts that looked well thought out.

We took them for granted until we got a bulletin about forthcoming legislation in the european parliament which would automatically have been adopted by the UK. The wording of the legislation was very vague but aimed mostly at stopping the short term hiring of some fairly dangerous equipment (like chainsaws etc) without some form of competance test on behalf of the hirer. This was no doubt well intentioned & very much needed in what was a largely unregulated industry.

But, the way the legislation was worded, which was picked up by the HAE's lawyers, would've meant that anyone being handed a sharp bladed tool would need to prove their competance in handling & operating such a tool. That means ANY sharp bladed tool.

We were told this after the HAE & their law team had stopped that legislation being passed with 6 (SIX) hours to spare.

The ramifications, if that legislation had passed, would have rendered the whole fledgling small tool hire industry unsustainable overnight. Just one injury by one hirer of a sharp bladed tool would see all of our insurances withdrawn.

It would also have meant that the restaurant you're in could not provide a knife & fork unless you produce evidence of some form of competance in cutting up your own food.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by pgk pgk on 11/07/2018 15:31:52:

Weapons are everywhere..an umbrella with a sharper point? A walking stick or a few coins and a sock. I daresay sharpening the edge of a credir card could scar a face badly. At some point we either have to deal with the causes of violence or have a police force that actually catches the perpetrators and a system that removes them from the future

Anything that could be remotely construed as a weapon was banned with a vengeance from passenger aircraft many moons ago. Yet they never, ever, banned duty-free alcohol. I would have thought that a bottle with the end smashed off would make a pretty fine weapon. (Doubtless many are plastic these days but that wasn't always the case. I wouldn't know, haven't flown for years – neither by aeroplane nor using my cape.).

If anything that can cut skin is to be banned from the mail does that mean paper can't be sent?

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

I remember when I was at school, every lad had a penknife. we were shown how to sharpen pencils. In tech drawing class we even had an oil stone to sharpen the knife. I don't remember anyone getting stabbed. Oh happy days

Roy

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

The only stabbing at school that I can recall was to myself, I had been annoying a girl in my class and she stabbed me in the arm with a compass, it had the desired effect I stopped annoying her and it was painful at the time, and yes every boy had a penknife they were only used for sharpening pencils etcetera, the boys weren’t into stabbing only the girls!!!

Dave W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Surely it's the same rules as applied to the sales of blades in shops?

Neil

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Thinking of weapons being everywhere…

I got very close to being refused entry to Alaska in 1987 going along the Alaska Highway. I had been interviewed by the twerp in the booth for 20 minutes while I was getting hotter and hotter in a one piece motorcycle suit. The twerp asked me if I had any dangerous weapons, to which I said 'No'. He immediately told me I had, as he could see my log splitting axe on the back of my bike. I returned with 'If that's a dangerous weapon, the I have lots more on the bike. Starting with the bike itself which I can run people over with, the hammer & spanners to beat them with, the petrol to burn them with, the water bottle to drown them with, the medicines to poison them with, the kitchen knives to carve them with, and most dangerous of all, I have a brain bigger than the size of a pea.'. The twerp stomped off to get his signature rescinded from the 5 day entry visa he'd already approved – but his boss didn't permit it to be rescinded.

Then once going to the continent, the security checks at Dover, I was asked to get out of the van and empty my pockets. They saw my penknife and asked if I had any other knives on the van. 'Yes.', said I, 'It's a motorhome, and it has kitchen knives, four of them.' They gave up.

Regards

Richard.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

A few years ago before the security situation became so touchy I was visiting the Houses of Parliament and before you could go up to the public gallery in the Commons you were required by the policeman on duty to turn out the contents of your pockets, in order to make sure you weren’t carrying any weapons. Well thinking no more about it I emptied my pockets and out clattered a penknife, I must add that this particular penknife was a fine specimen with horn side pieces and I was proud of it having bought it at the Devon County Show when I was 13 and had carried it ever since. The policeman looked at it and I thought “I am going to lose this penknife after all this time” but he eyed me up and down and obviously risk assessed me and his words were “put it back in your pocket, I haven’t seen it”; I am sure that the reaction would be much different today.

Dave W

[Dick HParticipant @dickh]

Ever cut your finger on a sheet of paper?

Edited By Dick H on 11/07/2018 21:57:31

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Samsaranda on 11/07/2018 20:21:09:

, the boys weren’t into stabbing only the girls!!!

Can't help feeling that needed a comma in there. (Apologies to the sensitive people of that other thread).

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

I was in the queue for the security check at Heathrow the other week, heading back to NZ. I started to turn out my pockets to put everything into my jacket pockets so it could go through the scanner. I then found I still had a set of keys for my mother’s house and on it was a small penknife. I was expecting a problem and took the penknife off the keyring and pointed out to the security guy that I had inadvertently kept the penknife with me. I fully expected it to go in the bin.

He gave it a cursory check and told me it wasn't a problem and handed it back to me. On the trip I was also going to be going through security in Singapore and Melbourne. I didn’t bother pointing it out and there weren’t any problems there either.

My wife had more of a problem with her cosmetics.

Pete

[oldveloParticipant @oldvelo]

Hi

Pocket Knives not normally a problem when traveling. A Lock Back blade is NOT allowed unless in baggage that goes into the hold.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by oldvelo on 11/07/2018 22:31:35:

Hi

Pocket Knives not normally a problem when traveling. A Lock Back blade is NOT allowed unless in baggage that goes into the hold.

Really not sure what you mean by that.

A slip joint knife in one's pocket may well be a problem, certainly on an aircraft, and often on a ferry etc. Expect potential problems when being forced to march through a "Knife Arch" metal detector, even with a street legal carry. (i.e. sub 3" non locking folder, such as most Swiss Army Knives for example)

Knives with a locking or fixed blade are prohibited in a public place, unless the bearer has a lawful reason. That reason is gradually becoming more and more tightly defined.

N.B. the locked boot of your car is defined as a public place within the terms of the relevant legislation. ( I believe that's so the police don't need a warrant to search it ).

As someone with a small collection of penknives, with a particular interest in Sheffield made ones, I have several concerns about this proposed legislation; I also have concerns as a buyer of "normal tools and cutlery".

It seeks to ban bladed articles from being sold and then posted to residential addresses, or dead drop lockers.

Thus if I wanted to sell you one of my legal to carry knives, or you wanted to by one from a normal retailer, I/they wouldn't be allowed to post it to your home, unless it's also registered as a business address. Essentially as there would be no guarantee that the person opening the parcel was aged over 18.

Part of the wording refers to "blade or sharply pointed" which seems to cover a multitude of artefacts, e.g. a scriber.

As far as I can see, this part of the legislation will primarily effect law abiding citizens, as those intent to cause harm will always be able to find another source for their weapons.

We have seen a rise in specialist internet shopping, partly due to the closure of many small specialised retail businesses, though I'm not sure which is cause or effect. Thus it is frequently impossible to buy many products locally, unless one lives in a major city.

Yes "knife crime" is rising fast in London, and some other inner cities, I would argue due to the lack of focus on dealing with the real issues.

It's falling in Scotland where they have sought to deal with the specific social issues as well as the legal ones.

Here's one article, there are many others.

I firmly believe that most knee jerk reactions lead to poor legislation.

Regards

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 12/07/2018 00:36:04

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by peak4 on 12/07/2018 00:29:00:

…It's falling in Scotland where they have sought to deal with the specific social issues as well as the legal ones.

Here's one article, there are many others.

Very interesting article. Give the lads training, jobs and decent housing and the problem goes away. Who'd a thunk it? But of course there are not as many political points to be won by "molly-coddling them" as opposed to "cracking down" and "getting tough" on crime.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Spot on Bill its happened and been legislated in other areas already going back 11 years.

Problem is the vocal ones pushing it not having a clue in to its implications.
With the increase in net and online sales there will be very very few shops in the future, therefore no one will be able to buy any tool for daily personal use no even cutlery.
Of course a tradesman working or driving/passing by a public place could get done for carrying an offensive weapon, theres no end to it.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Whatever they do, how are they going to police it..? Its like the chemicals/flammables etc that the post office and carriers say they no longer carry. You can go online and order almost all of it and the supplier will pack it and send it, how are the carriers to know whats in the parcel. Last week I ordered a litre bottle of ISO 99% and it arrived in a taped up cardboard box, no problem.

Ron

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Just try getting your hands on sulphuric acid – near impossible. I got 12 litres of 96% delivered today but had to jump through hoops to get it. Problem is that pretty much all other acids are still unrestricted and many will cause just as much damage if used as a weapon.

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