ARC-Safety Concern – 80mm 4 Jaw Independent Chuck-China

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

During period of 1 August 2015 to 16 May 2016, out of a new batch, ARC sold a total of 23 chucks to end users with the following specifications:

ARC Product Code: 040-040-00500

Description: 4 Jaw Independent Cast Iron Lathe Chucks – Chinese Origin.

Shortly after the sales from the new batch started, we received one complaint about a chuck which was belling. Simple drawing of 'belling' below:

We received it back, checked, agreed and refunded. Between the period of 3 May 2016 to 17 May 2016, we received three similar complaints in a row, so we suspended sales of this product pending investigation., which were completed today.

Findings in agreement with one of the complainants was that tightening of a jaw resulted in bending of of 'the forks' which retained the jaw and 'worm screw' in place. An example/extreme case after use is shown below, after dismantling:

This is a safety concern, and we will be contacting those 23 customers to request them to stop using this specific chuck. The reason we are making this public announcement is we are uncertain about how long it will take us to reach the 23 concerned. So, if anyone of them is reading this, and If you belive that you are one of the 23 who may have purchased this chuck from us and who may be effected, please do not use this chuck, get in touch with Ian or Ketan at ARC, so that we can also check and cross you off our list, as well as arrange a refund.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Well Done, Ketan

MichaelG.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Now that's what you call customer relations & after sales service, well done Ketan & ArcEuro.

George.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

If only Volkswagen could have been so transparent .

Well done ArcBrexitTrade

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

PRATT & BURNERD EVERY TIME……………………….RULE BRITANNIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOS CHUCKS ARE EXCELLENT TOO…………………….

Edited By RICHARD GREEN 2 on 01/07/2016 20:32:40

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Good job TOS are excellent as they make Pratt & Burnerd now [ except the grip-tru ]

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by RICHARD GREEN 2 on 01/07/2016 20:28:58:

PRATT & BURNERD EVERY TIME……………………….RULE BRITANNIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOS CHUCKS ARE EXCELLENT TOO…………………….

Edited By RICHARD GREEN 2 on 01/07/2016 20:32:40

Ohhh dear…. you been hitting the bottle lately?

Michael W

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by RICHARD GREEN 2 on 01/07/2016 20:28:58:

PRATT & BURNERD EVERY TIME……………………….RULE BRITANNIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOS CHUCKS ARE EXCELLENT TOO…………………….

Edited By RICHARD GREEN 2 on 01/07/2016 20:32:40

But who can afford one? And we'll have to pay import duty on them as well soon 'cos none of them are made in the UK

Rod

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I think they're about the same price as bison chucks, for me and the common man it's HBM India if i want one.

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

I'm glad that I stirred up the resident "experts" with my comments on Pratt and Burnerd , and TOS chucks

I engineer for a living thats why I buy the best I can afford,

Richard.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by RICHARD GREEN 2 on 02/07/2016 09:00:07:

I'm glad that I stirred up the resident "experts" with my comments on Pratt and Burnerd , and TOS chucks

I engineer for a living thats why I buy the best I can afford,

.

Unfortunately, Richard, your post merely distracted attention from the honourable job that Ketan was doing.

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Richard, I agree with MichaelG.

Regards Nick.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by RICHARD GREEN 2 on 02/07/2016 09:00:07:

I'm glad that I stirred up the resident "experts" with my comments on Pratt and Burnerd , and TOS chucks

I engineer for a living thats why I buy the best I can afford,

Richard.

.

So do I Richard but I try to moderate my posts , advise and help from out and out dick slapping to what the readers of this forum, which after all is a hobby forum can afford and handle.

Unlike the Americans who just corner off the top end of the North 40 when they want a new workshop and fill it with Bridgeports, Harding's, Tormach's etc most of the readers here have problems getting anything bigger than a C3 /X3 into their little shed or coal house.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by RICHARD GREEN 2 on 02/07/2016 09:00:07:

I'm glad that I stirred up the resident "experts" with my comments on Pratt and Burnerd , and TOS chucks

I engineer for a living thats why I buy the best I can afford,

 

Richard.

Clearly everyone would buy the very best if they could part with the cash. Also, what makes you think a name makes something worth while? Are you implying that simply because something is cheap it must be bad quality? It might be wise to reconsider that notion. There is something known as competition, customer service (a good example above) and value for money, maybe they don't want to charge an arm and a leg just because they can. 

Is the opinion of someone who doesn't engineer for a living worth any less than someone who does? I know plenty of professional machinists who have a very narrow skill set as opposed to hobbyists. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 02/07/2016 11:17:21

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/07/2016 18:45:20:

Well Done, Ketan

MichaelG.

I'll second that !!!

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Whilst I certainly applaud the recal of a potentially unsafe product why does the bending of those fingers make the jaws bell out?

Does the slides in the chuck body and the jaws themselves not make the jaw sit at 90 dog to the body?

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 02/07/2016 11:51:18:

Whilst I certainly applaud the recal of a potentially unsafe product why does the bending of those fingers make the jaws bell out?

Does the slides in the chuck body and the jaws themselves not make the jaw sit at 90 dog to the body?

I am not sure Ian. The drawing I put up is an 'exaggeration' to explain belling in simple terms to those who are new to the term. the belling is difficult to see until you hold the chuck with a work piece against a fluorescent light for example. What is more critical is that fitting of the jaw becomes loose due to bending of those fingers.

Ketan at ARC.

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Very well done Ketan! I only wish that other suppliers to the model engineering fraternity would publically engage with their customers who frequently raise issues on this forum. Don’t tell me that they do not look at the forum as I am sure they do. They rely heavily on our custom and should be prepared to answer general issues publically just as Ketan does. This is the main reason that I buy all that I can from Arc and only consider the others if Arc cannot supply my needs.

Arc also sell Zyther chucks from India, a manufacturer with a high reputation for making quality products . Zyther chucks are very reasonably priced compared with PB or Tos

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Well done ARC, a very reputable and conscientious company.

Lambton with all due respect, I dont think you should mention Zither in the same breath as PB or TOS , that would be like comparing TOS to Forkhardt, SMW or Schunk. TOS would be very, very, reasonably priced against the aforementioned.

Cheers.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Well, competition is upping it's game as now i reckon Bison chucks are pretty good, and they are polish made. They sell them to industry. As well as Gerardi milling vices, italian made. And what about Vertex in Taiwan? 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 02/07/2016 13:22:32

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Lambton on 02/07/2016 12:21:46:

Very well done Ketan! I only wish that other suppliers to the model engineering fraternity would publically engage with their customers who frequently raise issues on this forum. Don’t tell me that they do not look at the forum as I am sure they do. They rely heavily on our custom and should be prepared to answer general issues publically just as Ketan does. This is the main reason that I buy all that I can from Arc and only consider the others if Arc cannot supply my needs.

Arc also sell Zyther chucks from India, a manufacturer with a high reputation for making quality products . Zyther chucks are very reasonably priced compared with PB or Tos

It's probably because Arc is a company established by people who use the products themselves, and so therefore aspire to provide the service they too would like in return, as a hypothetical user.

Michael W

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Michael, Bison-Bail chucks ect are very good, easily the equal of PB. prices are fairly similar. My Dividing head and me rotary table are both Bison-Bail. I have no experience of Vertex although their products do appear to be popular amongst the ME group. I did at one time think of getting a Gerardi milling vice, but managed to get a very good price/discount on a new Gressel instead. [far to good for my bodges].

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Many of the 23 who purchased this chuck from ARC did so for use on their mini-lathe of which ever form, from which ever company. The direct flange mounting on these lathes have a 55mm register with 66mm pcd. This is 'Chinese standard' for 80mm lathe chucks, regardless of where it is made in China by which ever factory.

Zither – Made In India, has a different register and PCD. Similarly, any other made outside China will probably have different specifications, which would not allow them to be mounted directly onto a 'standard' 80mm flange of a mini-lathe. If someone wants to mount a non-Chinese chuck onto a mini-lathe, they would have to add a backplate to the flange, machine a register and make holes to accept the different PCD.

Zither and Sharp (promoted by Chronos), are well recognised lathe chuck manufacturers in India, built over three generations of respective respected families, owned and run by engineers. They are well known for making heavy duty lathe chucks for Indian industry. In such an environment, the quality margin between them and TOS is narrow. HBM is not a brand recognised in Indian industry. As such it is badge engineering, made in India or China, procured from dealers/brokers who in turn sub-contract to cottage industry. Nothing wrong with this. Reading various threads, as well as speaking with customers who have used HBM, I am aware that they are happy with them, but for the reasons stated, I would not compare them with TOS, due to clear lack of traceability. Zither and Sharp do not supply to HBM, nor will HBM consider to purchase from them due to price.

Not withstanding the diversion to the topic, my original safety concerns stand for the 23pcs which ARC has supplied.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Michael Walters on 02/07/2016 13:24:49:

It's probably because Arc is a company established by people who use the products themselves, and so therefore aspire to provide the service they too would like in return, as a hypothetical user.

Michael W

Michael W,

It would be great if this was entirely true. Depending on product, it is true that we test some of them as an end user might or would, and/or if we are unsure, we do put out certain products to certain people for testing, but generally, most of the products we sell are promoted after consulting users in the hobby as well as in industry. For products I consider to be critical, and or new product development, I tend to visit the factory which makes the products to understand them. I am not an engineer, so many of the visits are accompanied by John Stevenson who provides the guidance where needed.

For Chinese origin chucks it is difficult to buy directly from the makers, for a whole bunch of reasons (some of my competitors may disagree with this comment). So we depend on a specific bulk buyer through whom we have been buying lathe chucks for nearly 15 years without any major issue. As soon as we suspended sales of this size, I reported the concern to our supplier with request for them to check their stock too. Their engineers checked their stock and discovered the same issue as we reported. We are both dealing with this matter in our own way.

Ketan at ARC.

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