Correct VFD and cables?

Correct VFD and cables?

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  • #830984
    andy198712
    Participant
      @andy198712

      Hi,

       

      so I’ve decided to go AC 3PH motor and VFD on my SC2 lathe after the control board let go a second time.

      I’ve brought a 0.75kw motor

       

      spec is here

      TEC Electric 0.75kW 3ph 2 Pole 71 Frame Face mounting AC Motor for 230V or 400V 3 phase supply. Inverter Rated for use with a Variable Frequency Inverter Drive having 1ph or 3ph input and 3ph output, or a fixed frequency mains supply at 50Hz.

      Fixed Main Supply output:  0.75kW (1.0HP) x 2730RPM at 230V or 400V x 50Hz 3ph.
      Inverter Drive Supply Output:  14:1 Speed Control range from 273RPM to 3822RPM at 5Hz to 70Hz, with suitable de-rating at the lower speeds.

      Full Load Current – 3.24A at 230V, or 1.87A at 400V.
      Power Factor is 0.83 when mains connected at 50Hz.
      Efficiency is 72% at full load.
      Set terminal box links ‘three a-breast’ for 230V ‘Delta’ connection.
      Set terminal box links ‘two at one side’ for 400V ‘Star’ connection.

      145mm Wide x 255mm Long x 188mm high overall in its IP55 enclosure.
      Face mount on 4 x M6 tapped holes at 85mm pcd with 70mm diameter register in the 105mm diameter flange.
      Shaft is 14mm dia x 30mm with 5mm wide key.
      Weight is 6.6kg.

      Rated at 40C Ambient.
      Ventilation space required at rear cooling air intake.
      Thermistor over-temperature protection is included.

      Part number is – 0.7523TECAB14

       

      ———————

       

      the VFD I plan on buying is the Tecdrive 0.75, mainly as the instructions are so good and I’ll get a warrenty and support if I buy from a good shop like ACDCdrives or the like….
      I thought about a cheap Amazon VFD but the differnace of less than £100 just doesn’t seem worth it for me.
      0.75kW Inverter 230VAC 1Ph – TECDrive

      is that the correct one? I think it is.

       

       

      ny second question is what rating and size of wire is reccomend to feed the motor from the VFD?
      and for the VFD input? Is 2.5mm2 okay for this like would feed the socket?

      I’m open to other options around the similar price, just seemed logical to get the same brand VFD and the instructions are really well written

       

      cheers

      andy

      #830988
      not done it yet
      Participant
        @notdoneityet

        Ahh, yes.  As I see it, the motor, at full load will suck up about a kW (746W/0.72).  But others may consider a 0.75kW inverter good enough.

        A common chinese VFD is likely rated at 1.5kW and that would suffice for me – as long as the maximum current, before tripping, can be derated sufficiently for the motor.

        Best to ask pertinent questions to the supplier, methinks.

         

        At only a bit over a kW total power  (motor full load (746W) + inefficiency + inverter) 2.5mm^2 conductors are far more than adequate.  Personally, I have loads of 2.5mm^2 cable, so would use it.  1.5mm^2 would be more than adequate.

        I’m no electrician, so take advice from proper electrician is my suggestion – if different to mine.

        You are unlikely to operate your lathe at full power.  Indeed, the motor supplied with the lathe, may well have been less than 1HP.  Vendors often quote Watts as the supposed power rating (conveniently including the inefficiency of the device but hoping the purchaser doesn’t notice or knows no better).

        #830998
        southernchap
        Participant
          @southernchap

          Is there a reason you’ve gone for a 2 pole motor?

          Most lathe and mill motors (single or 3 phase) tend to be 4 pole motors and run at around 1400 RPM at 50 Hz.

          If you want to run your spindle at say 400 RPM, that’s not going to be possible with that motor.

          #831007
          jimmy b
          Participant
            @jimmyb

            When I decided on a VFD set up, after a lot of research I just went went with a package from Newton Tesla. On the basis of cry once at the price. Years later after no issues, I couldn’t be happier and would do the same in the future.

             

            Jimb

            #831010
            andy198712
            Participant
              @andy198712

              Thanks!

               

              so I’ve emailed them but pretty sure this is the right one as the manufacturer reccomend matching them and going bigger is a waste of money so they say. But I think that’s because the brand name ones are a true rating? I heard the Chinese ones can be a little optimistic?
              also these ones (which are classed a decent budget option apparently)

              have a decent safety factor, the motor says it’s 3.27amps max on the info plate. And the VFD is rated at 4.3amps but can handle 150% over for 60 secs and more for less.

               

              BUT like you say your going to struggle hitting anywhere near max on a small lathe I think?!

              thanks I do have both those cables but fancy a nice suple flex maybe?! My cables are solid core so might just order a couple meters or source it 🙂

              #831011
              andy198712
              Participant
                @andy198712

                So the pole thing was a bit of an after thought if I’m honest. Found this motor new for £49 free delivery with a 90* worm drive attachment too (will remove but it’s a bonus ) could make a 90* milling attachment in the future

                when I look at my current DC motor it’s says 5500rpm? So I assume this one is slower?

                but it did cross my mind, worse case I can hear it down I thought. But also the motor says;

                For Variable Speed use…
                Part Time Output when Inverter powered is…
                1.87Nm – 0.75kW (1HP) x 3822RPM at 70Hz
                2.62Nm – 0.75kW (1HP) x 2730RPM at 50Hz
                2.62Nm – 0.375kW (0.5HP) x 1365RPM at 25Hz
                2.62Nm – 0.075kW (0.1HP) x 273RPM at 5Hz
                Continuous Output when Inverter powered is…
                1.87Nm – 0.75kW (1HP) x 3822RPM at 70Hz
                2.62Nm – 0.75kW (0.75HP) x 2730RPM at 50Hz
                2.22Nm – 0.32kW (0.43HP) x 1365RPM at 25Hz
                1.31Nm – 0.037kW (0.05HP) x 273RPM at 5Hz

                which put me at ease but I may be wrong?

                #831012
                andy198712
                Participant
                  @andy198712

                  The package route did cross my mind, trouble is I paid a couple hundred quid for the lathe. If I went with a top quality setup it just wouldn’t make sense here so trying to keep the swap about £200 as that’s what a new control board would be (looking on Ali there £330!)

                   

                  also I was toying with a new bigger lathe (sc4/wm250 or 280 size) so looking to keep the budget smaller for this. As think I’ll upgrade in a year or two maybe.

                   

                  “maybe” as this lathe cuts nice, fits the space I have (could maybe stretch to bigger) I fitted angular contact bearings and brass gibs….bearings in the controls
                  Its basically worth more to me as a nice small lathe then it’s worth in money if that makes sense?

                  were this a bigger more expensive lathe I would absolutely go your route

                  #831028
                  Robert Atkinson 2
                  Participant
                    @robertatkinson2

                    While a 4 or even 6 pole motor would normall be recommended as a replacement for a AC induction motor your choice of a 2 pole is appropriate to replace a DC or Brushless DC such as the one on your SC2. Even then you may have to fit a larger pulley if you need the higher speed range.

                    A 0.75 kW VFD is the correct choice for a 0.75 kW motor. Those suppliers who recommend larger seem to be covering for the fact that their products are not well made.
                    The VFD you link to seems OK but a quick look didn’t locate a manual. Their comments on filters is a little wrong but the conclusion that you should use a VFD with a built in filter is correct.

                    1.5 mm2 cable is more than adequate.
                    Note that the VFD MUST be installed in an enclosure with external controls. Not doing so is UNSAFE.

                    Robert.

                    #831035
                    Russell Eberhardt
                    Participant
                      @russelleberhardt48058
                      On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                      Note that the VFD MUST be installed in an enclosure with external controls. Not doing so is UNSAFE.

                      Robert.

                      Can you please explain why it is unsafe? I have VFDs installed on both the Mill and the lathe.  Both mounted on the wall behind and above the machine so well clear of any swarf and with remote controls on the machines.  I can’t see what is unsafe.

                      Russell

                      #831041
                      andy198712
                      Participant
                        @andy198712

                        Cheers Robert I blame you for this upgrade over doing the sewing machine motor or cheap Ali express option 😂

                         

                        I’ll link the instructions the seem nicely laid out

                        #831046
                        andy198712
                        Participant
                          @andy198712
                          #831053
                          southernchap
                          Participant
                            @southernchap
                            On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                            While a 4 or even 6 pole motor would normall be recommended as a replacement for a AC induction motor your choice of a 2 pole is appropriate to replace a DC or Brushless DC such as the one on your SC2.

                            Ah, of course. As the OP pointed out, it’s a DC motor running at a higher RPM.  Fair enough.

                            #831058
                            Dave Halford
                            Participant
                              @davehalford22513

                              The only issue will be when you run the motor anywhere near the low frequency end unless you fit additional cooling as the motor fan is sized for sufficient air supply @ 2700 rpm for continuous running.

                              #831060
                              Robert Atkinson 2
                              Participant
                                @robertatkinson2
                                On Russell Eberhardt Said:
                                On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                                Note that the VFD MUST be installed in an enclosure with external controls. Not doing so is UNSAFE.

                                Robert.

                                Can you please explain why it is unsafe? I have VFDs installed on both the Mill and the lathe.  Both mounted on the wall behind and above the machine so well clear of any swarf and with remote controls on the machines.  I can’t see what is unsafe.

                                Russell

                                Hi Russell,

                                I don’t know what make  & model VFDs you have or seen pictures of the installation so can’t say for certain what the status of your setup is. However most VFDs including those indicated by the OP are designed to be installed in an enclosure. They are components not complete equipment. The terminals are not adequately protected against being touched or being exposed to swarf etc. They don’t have adequate strain relief or cable protection. Any conductors i.e. wires, carrying mains voltage must have two layers of insulation or be enclosed such that a tool or key is required to access them. That includes motor wiring. It is almost certain that a VFD will require placing inside a metallic enclosure with additional filtering in order to meet residential EMC regulations. This is true even for VFDs with built in filters as these generally only meet industrial standards at best.

                                Robert.

                                #831061
                                andy198712
                                Participant
                                  @andy198712

                                  Yeah that will be in my mind like most tools really?!

                                  it does say this

                                  Rated at 40C Ambient.
                                  Ventilation space required at rear cooling air intake.
                                  Thermistor over-temperature protection is included

                                   

                                  and talks about continual use at 273rpm but I can’t imagine doing that or it liking it?! Can always add more cooking controlled by that VFD but I won’t be running it that slow much I can’t imagine

                                   

                                  I Havnt checked the gears on the lathe yet but the more one is something 20T so will check the bigger one

                                  #831063
                                  john fletcher 1
                                  Participant
                                    @johnfletcher1

                                    I bought and fitted an Inverter to my Super 7 fairly recently from “Inverter Super Market”, following on from what my friends had already done, as the setting up  procedure which is on line, is so clear. I mounted the inverter in a pre used sheet steel alarm box, I cut slots top and bottom of the box, 50 x 150, attached wire mesh over each slot, made 8, 15  x 20mm spacers which I used to fit a ROOF top and bottom, pagoda style. Whilst the inverter has an in built fan, I’ve fitted an ex computer 12 volt fan below the inverter, air in at the bottom out at the top. I made a small 12 volt power supply, it and the inverter is controlled by a 8 pole 240 volt relay, used as No Volt release with Large RED stop push. There is no isolation between main supply and Inverter. I had a some second hand SY cable and used it, motor to Inverter, ex computer multi core screened for control wiring. Reading some early Model Engineering Workshop magazine the third time Nov 2010, Arcuro were advertising Inverters and inline filters, the filter appeared to be very similar to ex washing machine in line filters, as I had several I’ve fitted one. Belts and braces. I hope a little or some of the above will be of use to you Andy.  John

                                    #831064
                                    DC31k
                                    Participant
                                      @dc31k
                                      On andy198712 Said:

                                      and for the VFD input? Is 2.5mm2 okay for this…?

                                       

                                      More a point of interest than any advice. If you look up the British Standard that is on a standard UK 3-pin plug (BS1363, pdf copies online if you look), you will see that the maximum cable size in the Standard is 1.5mm^2.

                                      As you are not in an industrial environment, where H&S regulations have teeth, you might take Robert’s initial post as fatherly advice, not stipulation. There is absolutely no must, whether in lower- or upper- (shouting) case, about the situation and the words used may perhaps have been ill-chosen, going for brevity and tabloid (not electrical!) shock value rather than rationally-delivered common sense.

                                      Read more calmly, it correctly points to some of the shortfalls of an un-enclosed VFD, ones which it would be sensible for you to consider when you do your own risk assessment and installation.

                                       

                                      #831067
                                      Julie Ann
                                      Participant
                                        @julieann
                                        On Dave Halford Said:

                                        The only issue will be when you run the motor anywhere near the low frequency end unless you fit additional cooling….

                                        A bigger problem is that at low rpm there is very little power output. One might have trouble pulling the skin off a rice pudding.

                                        An induction motor running below base speed (usually 50Hz in the UK) will have constant torque. But, since power is torque times angular velocity, the output power will decrease in proportion to the decrease in speed. Looking at the numbers provided by the OP for part time use the torque from 50Hz down is constant, as one would expect. For continuous use the torque below 50Hz falls off. I assume this is due to heating in the motor rather than anything to do with the VFD, which should have no problem running full current at any frequency output.

                                        Having variable speed by twiddling one knob is great, but it does come with some disadvantages. I think JasonB has published some notes on how to machine large items, like a flywheel, when the lathe has inadequate power at the low rpm normally used.

                                        Julie

                                        #831078
                                        Robert Atkinson 2
                                        Participant
                                          @robertatkinson2

                                          DC31K,

                                          I was trying not to sound like the halth and safety “police”  but there ARE legal requirements for installing this sort of equipment even in your own home.

                                          The law says it must be compliant with all applicable UKCA (or CE) directives. For a VFD this includes the Low Voltage (electrical safety) and EMC (radio and electrical interference both emitted and susceptability) Directives. Depending on the application the Machinery Directive or others may also apply.
                                          Contary to common belief these do not just apply to items made for sale. Just “putting into use” requires compliance. There are a few exceptions which are probably not applicable in this case.
                                          I’m not suggesting that people go out and buy the standards or pay for an expert evaluation (I am availble though 🙂 ) but if the worst happens and there is an accident and you have not followed at least “good practice” you will have no defence. Even if there is no criminal action you could end up with civil action against you probably by an insurance company.
                                          EMC in particular can cause issues to third parties well beyond your property.

                                          VFDs are not products they are components and even though they my have a CE mark on them they should not. The mnufacturer can not confirm complinace because of the wide variation in application. Proper review of all relevant documentation from reputable  suppliers claiming CE complinace will normally show that they are only claiming compliance for limited directives and a very specific, often impractical, configuration. While not a VFD a very similar example is Meanwell chassis type power supplies. Their EMC compliance is with it mounted on a metal plate with absoulte minimum allowe mains lead length and a resistive lod connected by a few centimeters of twisted wire.
                                          I’m a professional engineer and have to conform to a code of conduct that amongst other things precludes giving unsafe advice.

                                          Robert.

                                          #831090
                                          noel shelley
                                          Participant
                                            @noelshelley55608

                                            I’m not a luddite but the variable speed which is the main advantage of the VFD does come with some disadvantages. The main one is that when using a mechanical speed reduction be it gears or belts as the speed goes down so the torque goes up, this does NOT happen with a VFD. Cooling the motor at low speeds can be an issue, though being 3 Phase does give an improvement in smoothness of running.

                                            If one needs to do large diameter work it is better to run the motor near it’s rated speed and use the belts or gears to get the speeds one needs rather than just turn down the frequency. Noel.

                                            #831111
                                            old mart
                                            Participant
                                              @oldmart

                                              I agree with JA here about the very low power available at low frequency, I would not go below 20Hz.

                                              The 750W 1hp six pole motor I got for the Tom Senior light vertical converted to R8 runs from 25-75HZ and still has the four belt speeds which are a pain to change, but essential for power at low spindle speeds.

                                              #831156
                                              SillyOldDuffer
                                              Moderator
                                                @sillyoldduffer
                                                On andy198712 Said:

                                                with ordinary fles…

                                                 

                                                 

                                                BUT like you say your going to struggle hitting anywhere near max on a small lathe I think?!

                                                Depends on how hard you drive it, or there’s a crash.  Do you know why two control boards popped?  Mini-lathes aren’t high speed metal-munchers so avoid long heavy handed sessions.  Another possibility is something nasty in the workshop that’s spiking the electronics – welder maybe?

                                                thanks I do have both those cables but fancy a nice suple flex maybe?! My cables are solid core so might just order a couple meters or source it 🙂

                                                Yes, use flexible cable rather than solid core when vibration is present because solid cores are prone to metal fatigue.

                                                You might consider armoured cable colour coded Brown/Black/Grey to indicate 3-phase.   (Not expensive.)

                                                Please don’t wire the motor Brown/Blue/Green-Yellow with ordinary flex.  You can strip the flex and wire it all Brown, or all Blue, just not the standard single phase colour scheme because that’s liable to confuse an electrician or future owner.  Or yourself!

                                                Make sure all 3 wires are connected firmly at both ends before powering up.   If an end is left floating, the motor winding is liable to behave like a car-ignition coil, creating giant sparks that damage the motor and electronics.  No danger if all is secure, but sloppy wiring is punished!

                                                Dave

                                                 

                                                #831159
                                                andy198712
                                                Participant
                                                  @andy198712
                                                  On Julie Ann Said:
                                                  On Dave Halford Said:

                                                  The only issue will be when you run the motor anywhere near the low frequency end unless you fit additional cooling….

                                                  A bigger problem is that at low rpm there is very little power output. One might have trouble pulling the skin off a rice pudding.

                                                  An induction motor running below base speed (usually 50Hz in the UK) will have constant torque. But, since power is torque times angular velocity, the output power will decrease in proportion to the decrease in speed. Looking at the numbers provided by the OP for part time use the torque from 50Hz down is constant, as one would expect. For continuous use the torque below 50Hz falls off. I assume this is due to heating in the motor rather than anything to do with the VFD, which should have no problem running full current at any frequency output.

                                                  Having variable speed by twiddling one knob is great, but it does come with some disadvantages. I think JasonB has published some notes on how to machine large items, like a flywheel, when the lathe has inadequate power at the low rpm normally used.

                                                  Julie

                                                  Hi Julie,

                                                  good points, but the way I read it kind of suprised me, it still had very high torque at low rpm. Surely the HP number is partially irrelevant as torque is the force that the motor can produce rotating where as HP is more a number calculated from it against an RPM?!

                                                  watching a video by clouh46 I think on YouTube on his VFD conversion he couldn’t stop his motor at mega slow speed by hand (something which made me cringe but there we go, I value my skin more)

                                                   

                                                  we shall see I guess! Worse case I’ll buy a different motor but I’ll learn along the way

                                                  #831161
                                                  andy198712
                                                  Participant
                                                    @andy198712
                                                    On SillyOldDuffer Said:
                                                    On andy198712 Said:

                                                    with ordinary fles…

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    BUT like you say your going to struggle hitting anywhere near max on a small lathe I think?!

                                                    Depends on how hard you drive it, or there’s a crash.  Do you know why two control boards popped?  Mini-lathes aren’t high speed metal-munchers so avoid long heavy handed sessions.  Another possibility is something nasty in the workshop that’s spiking the electronics – welder maybe?

                                                    thanks I do have both those cables but fancy a nice suple flex maybe?! My cables are solid core so might just order a couple meters or source it 🙂

                                                    Yes, use flexible cable rather than solid core when vibration is present because solid cores are prone to metal fatigue.

                                                    You might consider armoured cable colour coded Brown/Black/Grey to indicate 3-phase.   (Not expensive.)

                                                    Please don’t wire the motor Brown/Blue/Green-Yellow with ordinary flex.  You can strip the flex and wire it all Brown, or all Blue, just not the standard single phase colour scheme because that’s liable to confuse an electrician or future owner.  Or yourself!

                                                    Make sure all 3 wires are connected firmly at both ends before powering up.   If an end is left floating, the motor winding is liable to behave like a car-ignition coil, creating giant sparks that damage the motor and electronics.  No danger if all is secure, but sloppy wiring is punished!

                                                    Dave

                                                     

                                                    Thanks Dave I’ll order some of that cable I like the idea of it. First task is get the motor and get it mounted and work out a pulley system or if I can get it close enough the stock setup will work or I’ll need another pulley inline, which will give me a good choice of speed options then….

                                                    #831170
                                                    Diogenes
                                                    Participant
                                                      @diogenes
                                                      On andy198712 Said:
                                                      On Julie Ann Said:
                                                      On Dave Halford Said:

                                                      The only issue will be when you run the motor anywhere near the low frequency end unless you fit additional cooling….

                                                      A bigger problem is that at low rpm there is very little power output. One might have trouble pulling the skin off a rice pudding.

                                                      An induction motor running below base speed (usually 50Hz in the UK) will have constant torque. But, since power is torque times angular velocity, the output power will decrease in proportion to the decrease in speed. Looking at the numbers provided by the OP for part time use the torque from 50Hz down is constant, as one would expect. For continuous use the torque below 50Hz falls off. I assume this is due to heating in the motor rather than anything to do with the VFD, which should have no problem running full current at any frequency output.

                                                      Having variable speed by twiddling one knob is great, but it does come with some disadvantages. I think JasonB has published some notes on how to machine large items, like a flywheel, when the lathe has inadequate power at the low rpm normally used.

                                                      Julie

                                                      Hi Julie,

                                                      good points, but the way I read it kind of suprised me, it still had very high torque at low rpm. Surely the HP number is partially irrelevant as torque is the force that the motor can produce rotating where as HP is more a number calculated from it against an RPM?!

                                                      watching a video by clouh46 I think on YouTube on his VFD conversion he couldn’t stop his motor at mega slow speed by hand (something which made me cringe but there we go, I value my skin more)

                                                       

                                                      we shall see I guess! Worse case I’ll buy a different motor but I’ll learn along the way

                                                      This video? – worth watching again, carefully, from 27:20 onwards.. ..there’s a particularly important point about his lathe drive-line which is unfortunately somewhat obscured and mumbled through – not deliberately, I’m sure..

                                                      https://youtu.be/J_IojFauSGs?si=YR5qKYEC_9UAgfs9

                                                       

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