West Yorkshire Police

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Barrie, you said you avoided hitting the car in front so you were either stopped or hardly moving, are the air bag sensors set to go off above a certain speed which when you went under the othe car wasnt exceeded plus under breaking your nose was low enough to go under the rear of the car which didnt set the sensor off under impact.

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 27/06/2020 11:53:53

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Did the airbag warning system detect an acceleration from the rear impact, rather than a deceleration, thus deciding not to deploy?

Martin.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 27/06/2020 12:01:41:

You cannot have a second stab at it !!

A different Martin!?

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

Were you driving using a child's seat which the sensors detected???

Or, if Martin's rear force over riding the frontal impact instruction, is incorrect, then could the pivoting force be a "no

deploy" command?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The air-bag is triggered by a forward facing inertial switch? Say a weight is held off the switch by a spring and won't operate unless the weight flies forward with sufficient force. When the car stops suddenly the weight carries on, depresses the spring and fires the airbag. But when the car is rear-ended the weight stays were it is against the end stop, doesn't fly forward and doesn't operate the switch.

Back in the day most drivers believed it was safest to be 'thrown clear' in an accident. Aircrash statistics said otherwise! We were lucky to have Mr Jimmy Saville to put us right!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2020 12:23:15

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2020 12:20:24:

The air-bag is triggered by a forward facing inertial switch? Say a weight is held off the switch by a spring and won't operate unless the weight flies forward with sufficient force. When the car stops suddenly the weight carries on, depresses the spring and fires the airbag. But when the car is rear-ended the weight stays were it is against the end stop, doesn't fly forward and doesn't operate the switch.

Back in the day most drivers believed it was safest to be 'thrown clear' in an accident. Aircrash statistics said otherwise! We were lucky to have Mr Jimmy Saville to put us right!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2020 12:23:15

Dangerous territory there.

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

Among several video series I watch on YouTube is one posted by a German company called VN24. Usually they report on road traffic incidents on the local autobahnen, sometimes with quite spectacular damage to the vehicles involved. Almost always it seems that the initial cause of these prangs is that drivers travelling at speed failed to notice that traffic ahead had slowed right down or stopped and were unable to stop before colliding with the last vehicle in the queue, I've seen several reports of similar incidents reported in the UK. Being a retired LGV driver myself and having covered many,many thousands of miles over the years, I've come to the conclusion that driving on a motorway for longish periods of time becomes mesmerising, with consequent significant extension of reaction time. The other point to make is that you don't usually come across stationary vehicles in lane 3 or 4 of a motorway, so reaction time is increased as you consider is that REALLY a stalled Lamborghini (or whatever) ahead. I cannot offer a solution to the problem of being mesmerised whilst driving. What think you?

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Barrie, that does not have a big enough measurement range for Dave's wonky tools

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 27/06/2020 11:33:29:

Howard

Whilst I agree if you hit something in the back then 'Driving without due care and attention is the charge' lets give the driver a little slack.

I will guarantee that if you were following exactly 2 second behind that Lambo and the driver went into an emergency stop, you will caught on the Lambo as you hit it up the back side such is the breaking power generated.

[…]

.

An interesting assumption you have made there, Barry

… It may, or may not, be valid.

The way I read the reports suggested that the Lamborghini had suffered a mechanical failure, and was stationary in the outside lane.

MichaelG.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

The mechanical failure could be one that renders the vehicl immobile, ie cannot be pushed or towed or even coasted.

It could just have been a blinking red light saying STOP which the driver did, albeit in a stupid place.

Roadcraft is a defensive driving system. If I recall my driving course of 30 years ago…."it is a system or drill, each feature of which is considered, in order, on the approach to any hazard, a hazard being…."

We were taught everything parrot fashion then and a failure could result from allowing the seat belt buckle to strike the window as you removed it.

The system works, to a degree.. . Go look in your local police workshop yard to see the huge pile of bent patrol cars generated by trained drivers.

We were also taught to depress the handbrake button prior to pulling up on it and releasing the button to allow the ratchet pawl to engage. This not only allowed for silently approaching a suspect but also reduced unnecessary wear on the ratchet mechanism. A few years ago they had to remove that piece of training as vauxhall handbrakes were so shonky they would release if following that method. A man was killed in leeds by a driver less van that the handbrake released on. Now the handbrake must be pulled with a resounding buzz from the ratchet.

The bottom line is that we as a species evolved to move and react at our maximum bipedal speed, that's why we rarely bump into others on foot. We simply do not possess the mental and physical abilities to cope with the speed of travel of modern vehicles. We've been walking for millennia, driving and flying for only a century. It's a wonder there are not more incidents on our roads.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

there is usually very little if any defence available to a driver who runs into the back of another vehicle.

If someone runs into the back of you, is it always their fault?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 27/06/2020 14:35:56:

.

who knows?

.

Exactly my point, Barrie

MichaelG.
.

[ I’ve spelled your name correctly this time, apologies for the previous error. ]

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It must be a near certainty that if you stop suddenly and hard in lane 3 you will be rear ended. Even driving in the small hours you are unlikely to be alone on any motorway. Trying to maintain a safe stopping distance is tiresome as if you manage to create the gap then someone will dive into it leaving it to you to do it again. It won’t be a problem for much longer as autonomous vehicles will look after the frustration for you.

Mike

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My father insisted that I pressed the release when applying the handbrake.

Apparently, in the early days of his transport business, he bought a very used Crossley lorry. He said that as you loaded sacks onto the bed, you could hear the handbrake releasing click by click with each sack! Hence his fear of worn ratchets.

Old habits die hard, so the handbrake hardly ever clicks on; just the same with double declutching.

Our daughter brought her car back from the Hague, to East Anglia, with a broken clutch cable, because she had been taught these techniques.

According to the TV programmes, a lot of Police cars are severely damaged, either by being rammed by criminals, or after being authorised for "Tactical contact". The American Police are trained on where to hit a car so that it spins off the road!

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 28/06/2020 16:45:26:

My father insisted that I pressed the release when applying the handbrake.

Apparently, in the early days of his transport business, he bought a very used Crossley lorry. He said that as you loaded sacks onto the bed, you could hear the handbrake releasing click by click with each sack! Hence his fear of worn ratchets.

Old habits die hard, so the handbrake hardly ever clicks on; just the same with double declutching.

Some Fords (and probably others) need to be applied with the button out every now and then for the automatic adjusters to work.

My Citroen has a very odd feel, one click only and if you press the button you have to release it well before you let go of the handle or it drops off.

Neil

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Howard a lot of the police car bumps are down to just plain getting carried away. There are only a limited number of Tpac (tactical pursuit and containment) officers so not many stops are carried out.

Regular beat car drivers often get the red mist coming down when driving and make silly mistakes. Bit too much adrenalin or as we used to term it; the drivers ambition exceeded their ability.

I used to do a slide show style presentation to new cops with bent police cars to demonstrate how things can go wrong. One pic had two marked cars turning into the same junction and colliding , one showed a crashed bandit vehicle that had slid off the road on black ice with the following police car right alongside it as the ice applied marked cars as well. But my favourite was a beat car that never even got out of the nick yard, seen embedded in the station wall, blue lights still illuminated.

I still always press the handbrake button in now, it grates on me to hear the angry ratchet of a brake applied otherwise.

Whichever way you slice it driving standards are being eroded, mainly because of a lack of active policing on the roads. All the automatic stuff is ok for documentary offences and speeding but there have to be cops stopping cars for routine checks, otherwise folk get complacent real quick.

[Sam SpoonsParticipant @samspoons83065]

Ex driving instructor and IAM Motorcycle Observer here.

AFAIK (from my Observer days so 30 years ago) only the traffic cops do the Advanced training not beat/panda/area car guys. I remember a Police Driving Instructor telling me that when the non advanced drivers were allowed to drive traffic cars (but with no pursuit or legal concessions) the number of crashes went up tenfold.

I too taught, and still do press the button when applying the handbrake, despite that my first driving school car (a Nova) ended up with a dodgy handbrake by the time I retired it.

Whether people jump into a safe gap or not when you leave one there is no excuse for driving too close. Remember the 'two second rule' only applies in good dry conditions, in rain you should at least double it and in snow stopping distances can easily be 10 times the Highway Code numbers (TBF many modern cars, even not so sophisticated ones, can stop in significantly less but better too much room than too little).

[Brian Sweeting 2Participant @briansweeting2]

Many years ago I was in lane three at around 70 when the traffic slowed rather quickly.

I hit the brakes hard but also checked my mirrors, as trained, so as I came close to stopping I moved right towards the central area with my Dad, in the passenger seat shouting "what are you doing?"

Having stopped we watched the car behind me, nose down, head directly into the boot of the car in front of me.

Close call

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Nothing beats looking where you are going!

The first time that I drove M25 westbound, cars catching up with me were tail ending the ones in front!

Fortunately, the traffic cleared and I was able to move away before they came sideways and got me involved.

Maybe modern cars are so easy to drive that you no longer need to think what you are doing?

Howard

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