HOW HEAVY ?

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

The recent mention of the delightful little lightweight Winson “PUG ” brings to mind something I had never considered when I was desirous of satisfying a long felt want, that of owning and more importantly running a live steam vehicle, IT’S WEIGHT ! Having grown up in N Dorset on S&DJR we had been used to seeing 9Fs rumble through, and at one point I was asked to do some work on 92207. It’s hardly surprising that a 9F would be my dream but I was to become the proud owner of an 0-6-0 Butch in 5″ !

I’m still reasonably fit but on lifting this on collection to put in the car, (some would call it a toy) but I could hardly lift it. The truth rapidly dawned on me that its weight would have some effect on how or where I would be able to work on it or use it. A friend bought a 5″ large prairie only for it to sit on the table for over a year as he couldn’t lift it on to his track.

How many other locomotive owners have fell into this trap ?

A 5″ 9F did come up for sale and I did consider it, not withstanding the above, thank the Lord while I dithered someone else bought it !  Noel

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi

I built a Speedy to running chassis stage, then found it was getting too heavy and sold it.

Ian

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Having attended many of the Northern Model Engineering Shows when they were at Harrogate and then Doncaster I saw many of the wonderful steam locomotives being manhandled into position.  For many of them it was a well oiled exercise in manhandling them to a trolley for transport from the back of a van to the stand and then rolling them off onto the stand.  The weight was frequently significant and a number of enthusiasts were required to  get one loco into position.

I have come across similar with model boats and spent many years building a model which then ended up too heavy to be conveniently manhandled.  Its now in a glass case!

[parovozParticipant @parovoz]

Looking at this from the opposite end…..

Weight is not the issue…..  ! ! !

The handling method is…..

I hear of the traction engine people saying that a 4″ scale engine is much easier than a 2″ scale engine. One is tempted to LIFT the 2″ scale, but the 4″ just gets rolled into the trailer… No lifting required.

One does need to think about the handling though. I have a small folding 2 ton mechanics engine hoist, that is my workshop third hand. Makes fitting / removing a 40″ long 9″ barrel copper boiler a doddle. Accurate control and no issues. It would be a VERY HARD and precarious 2 man lift otherwise.

For 5″ gauge a rotisserie frame is the way to go when building, then a wee hoist. Once completed, a wheeled trolley and a storage track work well, roll off storage track, onto trolley, then into car boot or onto small trailer….

So the size / weight of an engine is not about the ‘lifting’ but about the provision of the appropriate handling tools. So if you don’t have room for or want the handling kit, then go small and light… otherwise set it up correctly and it’s easy….

 

All the best 🙂

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

A 5in 0-6-0 weighs around 120-140 lbs. Technically above a two man lift I think by modern standards. An hydraulic lift table is a good solution because it can also be a plain bench for a lot of the time when you don’t need its lifting function. However you still need a suitable route from shed to car and the right sort of car to be able to roll it in without lifting.

[Hans HogendoornParticipant @hanshogendoorn60983]

Maybe can ask this question also in the “heavy / weight” part, I see loco’s running on air ( and literally in the air) with about 10…15 psi.

For a about 5 inch King on a roller bank, all parts on board ( boiler etc), should this be the same pressure ?

On my roller bank it’s about 25..30 psi? According to me everything runs freely?

Regards Hans

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Hans, if your engine is a new one, it probably needs to bed in or run in, most of my engines ran on air for a while, and gradually they would run on a lower pressure as all the stiff bits eased up.

Chris Gunn

[JAParticipant @ja]

Good question.

I am building a Speedy and considered the weight very early on. Unsurprisingly I have not found an approximate quoted weight so I had a go at estimating the weight.

Here goes – A GWR 15xx pannier tank weighed 58 tons. The 5″ gauge is actually 1/11.3 scale. This cubed is 1/1443 which gives a weight of 90 lbs which may be on the low side. I used this for calculating suspension spring rates. When it comes to handling put on more. Simple!

More thought is required when it comes to handling but I don’t think anything is difficult. I used to get a neighbour to help me but he did not survive the COVID lockdown. Still, a friend move a Colchester lathe up six steps and then thirty yard of garden path by himself. He then did the operation in reverse with the new lathe. All he used was rope, lifting strops and two scaffold poles.

JA

[JA]

On JA Said:

Good question.

I am building a Speedy and considered the weight very early on. Unsurprisingly I have not found an approximate quoted weight so I had a go at estimating the weight.

Here goes – A GWR 15xx pannier tank weighed 58 tons. The 5″ gauge is actually 1/11.3 scale. This cubed is 1/1443 which gives a weight of 90 lbs which may be on the low side. I used this for calculating suspension spring rates. When it comes to handling put on more. Simple!

More thought is required when it comes to handling but I don’t think anything is difficult. I used to get a neighbour to help me but he did not survive the COVID lockdown. Still, a friend move a Colchester lathe up six steps and then thirty yard of garden path by himself. He then did the operation in reverse with the new lathe. All he used was rope, lifting strops and two scaffold poles.

JA

On Chris Gunn Said:

Hans, if your engine is a new one, it probably needs to bed in or run in, most of my engines ran on air for a while, and gradually they would run on a lower pressure as all the stiff bits eased up.

Chris Gunn

It’s very new, mabe ran a few times (total maybe 10 minutes) on air. Do some tests in the next months, thanks!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Hans, 30PSI is fine. The size of the loco doesn’t to much matter as the piston area will be larger giving greater force. As it runs in and things ease you may find it will run happily on less pressure. If running in on air keep everything well lubricated – including the valves and cylinders. this may be done by winding on the steam oil lubricator.

JA my Butch 0-6-0 weighs in at between 90 and 100 LbsGood luck. Noel.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I wonder if the mobility scooter lift devices that can be fitted to many hatchback / estate / SUV vehicles would be a realistic option for shifting smaller locos, traction engines, heavy ME stuff et al into a vehicle for transport?

If so I guess being an “early adopter” may make some sort of fiscal sense. Especially as it gives time to find one at used prices, about 1/10 of new if my experience is typical. I grabbed one around 3 years back for a still-born project. Now its sits in the attic next door to the “free for helping us clear aged parents’ house” Stannah stairlift that has been in the attic for nigh on 1/4 of a century.

Clive

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A guide to using ex-mobility aids is to consider that they are designed to cope with the weight of an adult, possibly in a wheel-chair, while moving said person in a particular way: vertical lift above the ground? Towed up a ramp?

I bought my car because it is an ex-Motability adapted vehicle with ramp and electric winch – but it is mainly my normal car and only rarely has to carry either my (still unfinished) 4″-scale steam-wagon or 7-1/4″ g. 0-4-0 locomotive. The wagon will be the heavier and I do help things by pushing it up the ramp as well as the winch towing it.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

JA,  I will weigh my SPEEDY this morning. I was surprised how heavy it got especially once the copper boiler was added.

 

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

JA – Speedy 61Kg with its transporting cradle and about 3 litres of water in the boiler.  Note the lifting is by a simple lifting block/tackle which is in a slider so that the loco can be placed on the workbench (if there wasn’t so much rubbish on it) or onto the garden truck for taking out to the track.  The garden truck has a couple of legs that can be locked in place to stop the truck tipping backwards as the loco is rolled off the back of the truck onto a ramp and down to the track.

Bob

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Nigel

Had to sort out a “maintained on the cheap” Ford Galaxy with a Brotherhood wheel chair / scooter access ramp and winch conversion.

Pretty impressive but as the one piece ramp was basically the floor of the load space on drop down hinges it wouldn’t be a good choice for shipping a traction engine or other heavy model. Being short the ramp was pretty steep too. Wonderful as a wheel chair accessible vehicle though because the rear seats were individual so the centre one could be removed making space for the wheelchair / mobility scooter and its rider. So effectively the same as normal passenger sitting in the middle seat. Which is probably as good as it gets for folk dependant on a mobility scooter. Not so impressed with the Ford/Volkswagen engineering on the main vehicle tho’.

Sorting involved considerable verbal encouragement. Mostly trying to find electrical things and figuring out how to extract plastic covers. I seriously want a word with the guy (or gal) who designed the fusebox positions!

Ended up selling very cheaply to a guy with previous experience of Brotherhood converted Galaxies who knew exactly what he wanted and was getting.

The devices I was thinking of are basically small cranes on a rotating pivot so obviously vertical lift only. My plan A was to make a collapsable tripod to support the crane and stabilise things with a bar hooking onto the towbar to help lift stuff into my Range Rover P38. The split tailgate is great in many ways but sometimes its a right pain in the bum. Usually when needing to handle bulky or ill shaped stuff on your own. I wanted something I could carry in  the car to use at both ends. But need never quite got bad enough to actually do it.

Clive

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

Hi Hans, 30PSI is fine. The size of the loco doesn’t to much matter as the piston area will be larger giving greater force. As it runs in and things ease you may find it will run happily on less pressure. If running in on air keep everything well lubricated – including the valves and cylinders. this may be done by winding on the steam oil lubricator.

JA my Butch 0-6-0 weighs in at between 90 and 100 LbsGood luck. Noel.

Thanks!

[JAParticipant @ja]

Noel & Bob

Thanks for the weight details.

I haven’t the luxury of an overhead crane but I do have a block and tackle, simple trolley and motorcycle lift/work bench. In addition a set of shear legs is easy to make and safe to use.

JA

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