Forgotten engineering techniques

[Jesse Hancock 1Participant @jessehancock1]

Yes I briefly wondered what the English police would make of me wandering around trying to to find a wild pig and dragging my Brown Bess behind me.

They do lard in bricks here wrapped in grease proof paper at the super market.

Also tallow can be obtained from a Boat Chandler's if you live close too one.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Larry,

The last time I was in Sydney I was taken to the old shipyards on Cockatoo Island in Sydney bay – at the time it was possible to wander around the remains of the machine shop with huge machinery – not so much 'I could put my whole lathe on this faceplate', more a case of 'I could put my entire workshop on this faceplate'…

I took dozens of photos all ruined by a data card fault which gave the modern equivilent of the broken sprocket holes in film syndrome – all the shots were placed at the same memory card address.

However a quick google reveals other people's photos:

**LINK**

**LINK**

**LINK**

All in a bit of an untidy state when I visited 4 years or so back, but well worth a visit – if only to be overawed by the shear size of everything.

Simon

Posted by Larry Coleman 1 on 11/01/2015 12:18:09:

One thing you have in the UK & Europe is some of the old machinery has been saved but Australia does not have that history because we convicts have only been here for 200 years.

Larry

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Talking of bearing removal, in my youth I observed the fitters attempting to remove a large bearing outer journal from the side casing of a large machine. All the pullers and drifts amounted to nothing so much to my amazement out came the arc welder. They proceeded to run a bead completely round the inside of the journal and went for a fag whilst it cooled. The journal fairly fell out after that. The way it works is the weld sets and then cools and contracts enough to shrink the bearing sufficiently to release it. Simples !!

Martin

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

The welding trick I have used quite a few times to remove the outer race from double angular contact bearings as the inner knocks out quite easily, not with a stick welder but a bead with a MIG welder.

Bob

[Larry Coleman 1Participant @larrycoleman1]

In regards to making a cylinder square I made my first one on the lathe and at the same time aligned my lathe spindle. The most important thing before facing the ends is the job must be parallel and that determines the accuracy. If the diameter is parallel then carry out a water finish.

I am lucky enough to have a surface grinder which I constructed a cylindrical grinder attachment and I will post a pic for you later.

That coconut oil sounds good and when I am in town next I will buy some and try it.

Go for it Chris I use my cylinder squares all the time to check my squares when I drop them. Ounce you get the cylinder square right keep it in a cupboard.

The reason I mentioned spotting screws was for the beginner. I am pretty sure you old guys know what they are. now to check your CS is to reverse the square and if you get the same result your square is ca put.

That small square in the picture was made by me and it is hardened. The surface grinder helps when you are making things.

Here's one for you blokes I found an old copper reverberating furnace in the bush at an old mine site. I found out that it was built in 1864. I picked up a piece of one inch by one inch steel bar which was used in its construction. Now that bar had very little rust on it and appeared to be forged. Now I have seen this on many occassion.After 151 years of being out in the weather you would think it would be dust but that old steel seems to have a super survival rate. On another occasion I saw old skip rails used in a concrete dam wall which had been there for over one century. I wonder what those old blacksmiths new that I don't. Don't say stainless steel because its not.

Also I have made a deviding table for my Adept shaper and it works well. But I got no where with my Theil 3 filing machine pics in album.

Larry

[Larry Coleman 1Participant @larrycoleman1]

One thing I forgot to mention was there are a lot of screw presses around very cheap and if you come accross one cheap. They are good for pushing bearings and you can make punch sets for sheet metal as well as V dies to bend sheet metal for loco cabs. I also use mine for punching boiler plates. See album

Larry

Edited By Larry Coleman 1 on 14/01/2015 09:23:05

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by Simon0362 on 14/01/2015 08:19:00:………old shipyards on Cockatoo Island in Sydney bay …….

Not long after arriving in 'straya in 1980 I had an interview for a Ships Draftsman job at Cockatoo Dockyards. Travelling to the Island on a Harbour ferry I was thinking that a trip on this beautiful harbour would be a good start to any working day. Feeling positive I made my way up to the appointed place, at the appointed time. A lady told me to take a seat and Mr Bloggs would be with me shortly. Obviously I looked around, fairly big drawing office, no draftsmen, glassed in offices all empty, except for one. That one was occupied by ("presumably" I thought, there were no other males in sight) Mr Bloggs. He was reading the paper. So 45 minutes later and the paper was still being read, I got up and made to leave. The lady came rushing out saying

"where are you going?"

"To catch the ferry" says I, " …as Mr Bloggs is clearly far to busy"

"He will be very angry"

"Not half as angry as I am"

So, back to the waiting. A couple of minutes later I was shown in to see Mr Bloggs. We had a routine and not particularly interesting discussion about shipyards. When he had asked all the questions he wanted to ask, he asked if I had any questions.

"Only two, why are you advertising for a draftsman when you obviously have no work, and secondly, what is your opinion on the need for punctuality?"

He then told me to "Go away, you smart arsed pommy barsteward", but by that stage I was already half way out of the door, oh and he didn't actually say "Go away" if you know what I mean.

Amen to Cockatoo Island Dockyard

Sorry to go off thread.

cheers

Bill

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Larry, I think you would find it to be wrought iron, next to no carbon in it, virtually rust proof.

Ian S C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Larry Coleman 1 on 14/01/2015 09:16:28:

I am pretty sure you old guys know what they are.

We are not all old and crusty on here.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

It is surprising how badly worn bushes can be removed, thicker grease is the first thing to try. A hard wood dowel can be shaped for a better fit. For smaller dias. a suitable tap will do.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

I remove ball races in blind holes (think gearbox pilot bearings in flywheels) by inserting a suitably sized Rawlbolt, tightening to 'enough' torque and then attaching a slide hammer to the exposed bolt end.

Works every time and better than the grease method, especially when the ball race has eaten its own shields and lacks a hydraulic seal.

Simon

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by JasonB on 14/01/2015 09:56:56:

We are not all old and crusty on here.

Well, not crusty anyway.

Russell.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> After 151 years of being out in the weather you would think it would be dust but that old steel seems to have a super survival rate.

Probably wrought iron, especially if it had a forged look. Depending on the actual composition, many (if not most) wrought irons have good corrosion resistance.

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

It's all the silica slag inclusion wot does it. As soon as the surface starts to corrode the process halts when the surface has only the silica left. Really old stuff like anchors and other harbour ironwork when really corroded show the rolled or worked inclusions like wood grain. Wrought iron is more like a laminate than an alloy.

Martin

[Anonymous]

If I were to make a cylindrical square I would prefer to use a cylindrical grinder for finishing, after hardening, as it is probably less prone to errors.

I understand that some commercial cylindrical squares had one end ground at a slight angle, so that the degree of out of squareness could be quantified.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Not more likely that the obviously out-of true end was to stop it being used upside down?

There's clearly no real point to making BOTH ends dead square.

Neil

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/01/2015 17:20:15:

Not more likely that the obviously out-of true end was to stop it being used upside down?

Definitely not! The pictures I have seen of the Brown and Sharpe version have a series of 'parabolic' lines, each one of which indicates an out of trueness of 0.0002". So I doubt that the out of square end would be identifable by eye alone.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I am duly chastened!

Neil

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

Forgotten engineering techniques! One I like would to forget was on top of a ski lift bull wheel at 3000ft+ on Meall a'Bhuiridh in the mid eighties. Drilling 16 x 5/8th bolt holes by hand with a pre war hand machine, I was only told it was pre war but not which war!. A November afternoon with temperatures at road level about minus 4 and a wind speed reported as upwards of 40mph. Memorable days.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

G'day all.

Another forgotten engineering technique seems to be the ancient art of 'Fettling'

Now I think that I have a rough idea as to what it means. 'To fiddle, faff and fart around making bits fit' and one often sees it mentioned in engineering. But I cannot find it in my Macquarie Dictionary (Aust ver).

Another mysterious ancient technique is 'Building from scratch'

This elusive material has eluded me for many a moon. But now and then when I ask somebody where did the perfect item come from the answer is often "Built it from scratch"

I have checked the site ad's, *bay and goggled the net but nowhere can I find this mysterious substance.

The nearest things that I find are on Harold Hall's website. Somehow I suspect that HH knows all about this elusive 'Scratch' but he's not letting on.

Oh well, the nearest that I shall get is to scratch my head and ponder.

Regards from down-under

* Danny M *

Edited By Danny M2Z on 15/01/2015 04:37:17

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 15/01/2015 04:36:33:

Another mysterious ancient technique is 'Building from scratch'

.

Danny,

[Assuming that you were not just being funny]

This describes the likely origins of the phrase.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.  … Here is a good entry for fettle 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/01/2015 06:18:23

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Sometimes folk look too deep for an answer.

'Building from scratch'

<<the skill of the medieval mason. … for the building were worked out at full scale on tracing floors covered in soft plaster. … and at Worcester a carving shows a mason giving a drawing to a monk.>>

That's an extract from a BBC documentary on medieival stonemasons. Literally scratching the designs out for a building on the drafting floor. And you can bet they made concept sketches and scale drawings beforehand. I's also a darn good bet that they made concept models. At one time i took an interest in Windmills. No way do you go building something with baulks of timber that huge without a model or two to show it's going to work.

As for fettle. Often a guess,.. but make something fit you can fiddle, file, fatten , wattle and caulk and have the mettle to keep twiddling and tweaking….

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by pgk pgk on 15/01/2015 07:10:48:

That's an extract from a BBC documentary

.

… so it must be true

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/01/2015 07:31:26:

Posted by pgk pgk on 15/01/2015 07:10:48:

That's an extract from a BBC documentary

.

… so it must be true

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? I'd actually come across the technique of the drafting floor in past general reading and grabbed that bbc quote to save typing. Remember paper was an expensive commodity. Heck it;s not that long ago kids used slates at school – also could be referred to as working from scratch.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by pgk pgk on 15/01/2015 07:38:51:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/01/2015 07:31:26:

Posted by pgk pgk on 15/01/2015 07:10:48:

That's an extract from a BBC documentary

.

… so it must be true

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? I'd actually come across the technique of the drafting floor in past general reading and grabbed that bbc quote to save typing. Remember paper was an expensive commodity. Heck it;s not that long ago kids used slates at school – also could be referred to as working from scratch.

.

Sarcasm, Moi ?

Yes, of course … that's what the horn-ed smiley was meant to show.

Seriously though; Your explanation is, [like the others] reasonable.

No offence intended.

MichaelG.

[Author]

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