Angles

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Can someone please help with the following-

I have acquired a set of items from the workshop of a deceased friend. It is a set of thin steel plates about 1.5″ long, looking like truncated right angle triangles with different angles and slopes to the Hypotenuse. They are stamped 5°/10°/15°/20°/25°.

I have not come across these b4 and would like to know if anyone knows the proper name for them.

Trying to use ME suppliers lists to find out is hopeless as their puters will only recognise correct names!

[HuubParticipant @huub]

triangle ruler

granite angle ruler

angle plate precision ruler

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Angle  parallels or angle plates

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Do they look like these, albeit with less in the box?
Precision angle block set.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266174600860

Bill

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

(precision | machinist’s) angle (gauge | block) set?

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Thank you, Bill/Peak4 for your reply and photo which is spot on. Thanks also to Charles,Humber and Peter for your replies.

As I said,  I tried various suppliers in the hope of finding them pictured on their websites for sale, but no success. Trouble is, unless you provide an exact match of words their puter will reply not found. Without proper name, snookered! I tried ruler/s and parallels as I thought that they could be displayed on the same page. I have only that small set of 5 from 5° to 25° and no box. Could have been sold as a cheap set of most commonly used angles. Possibly the much missed Arceurotrade supplier.

Thank you all again for your help.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Says Angle blocks on my box.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hello Huub,

Very sorry didn’t check spelling b4 posting.

DMB

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

JasonB,

Thank you for your reply and photo. I note your set appears to be 10, so much more comprehensive.

I think that I used the enquiry term angle plates and drew a blank. Didn’t say ‘blocks’ as I thought that suggested something entirely different, given  how things they are.  Thank you.

DMB

 

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Could well have originally been a 6 piece set but the 30° has gone missing. By using suitable combinations that would have given all the 5° increments up past 90°.

These days the common, affordable, import sets are 10 piece giving 1° increments up to over 100° and 12 piece ones adding 1/2° and 1/4° increments.

But there are many varieties. Sets covering restricted ranges such as up to 10° are quite common.

If you re filthy rich Starrett will sell you a 6 block set giving 1° increments from 0 to 99° for just under £9,000.

1 1/2″ is quite short for stand alone use, Jasons picture shows one such set up, so possibly intended for use with a tangent bar.

Clive

[DMB]

On DMB Said:

…

As I said,  I tried various suppliers in the hope of finding them pictured on their websites for sale, but no success. Trouble is, unless you provide an exact match of words their puter will reply not found. Without proper name, snookered! …

Next time try searching for the image, perhaps with Google Image.

Bill’s photo got me:

Plus adverts from Amadeal and Amazon, who sell them.

Dave

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi DMB, I don’t think they came from ARC, as they only sold an economy set of 5 from 1 to 5 degrees in 1 degree increments, and the box of 10 that JasonB has shown, plus those shaped ones in the red box, and the boxed set of 10 and the red box, was only from catalogue No. 10.

Regards Nick.

[John PurdyParticipant @johnpurdy78347]

Mine is like the one Dave alluded to, 12 piece 1/4 to 30 degree. I think I have only used them a couple of times in 20 odd years!

John

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

John Purdy,

Thank you for your reply. What you said describes my feelings on the matter. I have never sought to buy them just for the sake of it as I cannot envisage a use for them. It was just the fact that they turned up in a deceased friends collection of tools. Maybe they might come in handy sometime, if I don’t snuff it first! I was curious as to what the correct name is.

John

 

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Emma Ritson reviewed a dodgy set, supplied by one of the cheapo/sub-standard/reject item sellers in China.  Her review was totally honest (not like the vast majority of reviews) and she was never invited to do any more reviews, surprise, surprise!

here it is:

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppos ethe amount of use comes down to what and how much you get upto in the workshop.

For setting work at an anhle in teh vice rather than th eimage I posted earlier I mostly use one of the digital angle boxes.

Where I mostly use these angle blocks is to set the vice at an angle on the mill table. I don’t use a swivel base and would not trust the markings to be 100% but it is very easy to place one of thes eblocks against a vice jaw and then you have a surfac ethat is parallel to the mill table and easy to clock in with an indicator.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Thank you for your reply and photo, JasonB

John

[not done it yet]

On not done it yet Said:

Emma Ritson reviewed a dodgy set, supplied by one of the cheapo/sub-standard/reject item sellers in China.  Her review was totally honest (not like the vast majority of reviews) and she was never invited to do any more reviews, surprise, surprise!

here it is:

I recommend watching the review.  Emma’s conclusion for ordinary workshop use is “good enough”, “useful enough for the price”, “not so shabby” and “they’re OK”.  But not for precision machining!

The angles are good, the worst being the 5 degree gauge, which was “not far” off – 2.4 minutes.

Main problem is the gauge faces weren’t all square or parallel.  Thus tilt could affect the angle slightly when the gauges are gripped in a vice. Emma correctly says this matters for precision work, when it would have to be allowed for.

The word “quality” is meaningless in the absence of a specification.  Better when buying tools to define “fit for purpose” and “value for money”.  Both depend on what the tool is used for in your workshop.   When buying angle gauges:

• A hobby workshop might never need them.   All gauges are fit for purpose, but none are value for money.  Walk away.
• My set is used infrequently, and, because I don’t need anything special, the Bangood set is fit for purpose and value for money.  I don’t need anything posh, because my angle gauges are used to:
  • sanity check angles related to XY coordinates on a milling table or when marking out.   Only needed when the angle isn’t a right angle, which is rare.  Set-squares measure right angles.
  • set items at an angle more accurately than the scale on my rotary table and adjustable angle plate.  The scales are mostly “good enough” for what I do, not much call for gauges.  Occasionally handy.
  • quickly set items at an angle in a machine vice with reasonable accuracy.  Occasionally handy.
• Others do precision work, perhaps lots of it, and in a hurry.  For them inexpensive gauges are unlikely to be fit for purpose or value for money:
  • Untrustworthy without a calibration certificate.
  • When high-accuracy is essential, angles can’t be assumed correct unless the gauges are parallel and true on all faces as well as angle correct.  Work is delayed when gauge shortcomings have to be understood and compensated.  When time is money, it’s worth paying more for tools.

Cheap tools are best avoided when precision is vital, and this applies to second-hand tools just as much as new ones. Everything has to be right when accuracy and precision really matter, and difficult to prove outside a properly equipped facility.  No second-hand micrometer, surface table, jo-block set, or any other metrology equipment is trustworthy unless it’s been calibrated.  Problem is brand-names do not protect against wear and tear!  A tenths micrometer that was fine yesterday could be miles off today.  All the owner has to do is drop it onto a concrete floor!

Model Engineering being a hobby makes pride of ownership a valid reason for spending money.  If buying expensive tools and traditional brands makes you happy, go for it.   It’s not engineering though because wasting money is a sin!

Dave

 

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Dave,

I agree with what you said but, with those suppliers, one never knows whether your particular item is very good, good enough, bad or downright ugly.

My last purchase from ban good was a simple MT2 item.  Unfortunately it was not quite MT2!  That made it totally useless.  I don’t buy from the sub-standard/stack ‘em high/reject merchants unless:

1)  I am confident it will do the job required,

2)  I am confident I can fix any short-comings, or

3)  I can afford to throw it away!

It’s several years since watching Emma’s review.  She was honest with her review and reported the short-comings as well as suitability – most reviewers are looking ahead to receiving their next freebie for review.  Emma’s honesty meant that did not occur.  I carefully watch some reviews and ‘read between the lines’ where I think (or know) the reviewer is not being fully honest with what they really find.  That include reviewers who are forum members.

I have two vevor diesel air heaters.  Neither is to spec.  They are good enough.

I laugh when people write about their 8kW versions – because thy have been totally hoodwinked into thinking they have something different than the (likely) sub-standard) 5kW version.

A very long time ago, both my brother and I bought some Rolson tools.  Use once and discard.  I expect they must be better these days!

Personally, I prefer to buy once, not twice.  That means ‘middle-of-the-road’ or better.  Good quality items, bought second hand, can be far better than cheap chinese.  My secondhand Britool socket set (very old, now) is still far better quality than most chinese offerings.

You takes your choice and pays your money!

[not done it yet]

On not done it yet Said:

Dave,

I agree with what you said but…

 

I don’t buy from the sub-standard/stack ‘em high/reject merchants unless:

1)  I am confident it will do the job required,

2)  I am confident I can fix any short-comings, or

3)  I can afford to throw it away!

…Personally, I prefer to buy once, not twice.  That means ‘middle-of-the-road’ or better.  Good quality items, bought second hand, can be far better than cheap chinese.  …

 

Well, we’re trying to manage the risk of buying tools that aren’t “Fit for Purpose”.  I suggest buyers do better by thinking about their needs rather than generalising.    Ask what could possibly go wrong AND what can be done to mitigate it?

When buying tools Model Engineers have three main sources, each with pros and cons:

1. New from an industrial supplier.  Pro:  Well-made to a specification and reliable.  Con: EXPENSIVE.  New members sometimes intend going this route, but abandon the idea on seeing the prices!
2. Secondhand from an industrial supplier. Pro: might be as good as new and considerably cheaper.  Con:  Depends on condition.  Secondhand is a gamble.   And, because the item is secondhand, the purchasers rights are reduced.   In particular, buying at an exhibition the buyer has few rights because he actually saw the product.   Risk of wasting money is reduced by distance buying regulations, but the buyer could lose out if the item is unsatisfactory.   Much depends on the seller:  some are fly-by-night or fraudsters.
3. New from a hobby supplier or box shifter.  Pro:  New and affordable. Money protected by warranty and consumer protection.  Con.  Not necessarily well-made.  What arrives anything from cheap and nasty up to industrial grade.  Box Shifters and Marketplace sellers like  Vevor, Amazon and Bangood unlikely to provide technical support.  Buyer responsible for understanding the manual.

With respect the idea of “buy once not twice” is suspect.  Made sense before consumer and distance selling protection, back when buying too cheap left the purchaser in the lurch.  Too cheap was a major problem before manufacturing developed ways of making mid-range products.

When buying tools was a risky investment, it paid to go upmarket.  Not so today, because times have changed!  Now most products are “mid-range”, and when new products are unsatisfactory, they are replaced or money back.  The purchase is low risk.

I suggest hobbyists think carefully about their needs. Most of us I suspect are light users, not flogging tools, working against the clock, or working to high-precision.   Fun and interest rather than production.

Factors:

• wide availability of affordable mid-range tools “good-enough” for several years work in a moderately busy workshop.  Cheap enough to be considered consumables rather than investments.  Why spend more?
• purchases protected by money back/replace are low risk. Protecting purchases by buying upmarket is usually unnecessary.
• new industrial is very expensive.
• second-hand is financially risky if the item is in poor condition.

Main reason for buying new industrial is reliability:  it works out of the box when time is of the essence and has a longer life than inexpensive alternatives.   If I were equipping a ship where a critical repair might have to be made at sea, I wouldn’t risk discovering an unopened set of Bangood Angle Gauges were no good.   But the same set at home would be checked on arrival and rejected if necessary, thus saving me lots of dosh.

May I warn against quality issues on internet comment.  Emma’s 8 year old video is a sample of one and she doesn’t say the product is useless.  Or that everything sold by Bangood is untrustworthy.  My Angle gauge set came from China via ArcEuro and doesn’t have the defects Emma detected.  My advice, don’t take generalised conclusions too seriously, especially if the advice isn’t evidenced.  For example:  NDIY says:  My secondhand Britool socket set (very old, now) is still far better quality than most chinese offerings.  What’s the evidence for that then?  China make a lot of spanners!  What did Britool do that can’t be emulated by any other spanner maker who chooses to go up-market?  Spanners aren’t rocket science!

Dave

 

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Dave, I have, or had, the evidence.  I’ve probably dumped more kit than most on here, over the years.  Yes, quality may have improved sufficiently to be good enough for most, but I’m not ‘most’.

We will always disagree on this topic, to some degree.  That is obvious.  You go your way and I’ll go mine (but I’m unlikely to be buying much, these days.🙂

For instance, I have a 1/2” extension bar, from a ‘lessor quality’ supplier that now has a spiral twist in it.  I was, at the time, attempting to change the track on a large Ford tractor.  The Britool extension bar did the job.

I still have the carp 2MT adapter, if it has not been scrapped.

I have always tried to use good quality wood screws – ones that I can undo without cream-crackering the heads – where appropriate.  My woodworking tools retain a good edge – not like some I have used.

Video channels test tools for half an hour and give conclusions that many take as gospel.  I want tools/machines that will last and be reliable.  I’m certainly not a machinist, but I suspect you are more the hobbyist, than a machinist.

My wife always said “It’s your stinginess that you regret, not your extravagances”.  I agreed with her.

‘Nuff said.  I’ll leave you with your cheapos and be off to read some other threads.🙂

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

High quality, professional grade equipment costs. Not surprising, given the material, treatments, and attention given during manufacture.

Recently, I donated my father’s 7/16″ hexagon drive socket set to the Water Works Museum. It dated from the 30s and was used by my father and, to a lesser extent, by myself, to produce an income. ONE socket showed signs of wear and replaced, in the 70s! Still useable.

A cheap socket set soon required replacements.

But even high cost  supposedly quality items can be sub standard.

A torque spanner from what is regarded as the highest quality tool supplier, in an industrial trial, was far inferior to the Britool torque wrenches being used!

My superbly accurate torque spanner?  A simple cheapie, checked repeated on several different calibration meters, and always accurate!

Choose carefully; for hobby use, “middle of the road” will often suffice, and be affordable.

“The bitter taste of poor quality long outlasts the thrill of low price”

Cheap might well need regular replacement, professional may never wear out, but near bankrupt you.

Don’t expect a £700 mini lathe to perform as well, or reliably, or to last as long as a toolroom machine costing forty times as much.

Choose carefully!

Howard

 

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

““The bitter taste of poor quality long outlasts the thrill of low price””

Or, “I’m not such a rich man that I can afford to buy cheap tools.”

The problem, as I see it, nowadays, with so many goods is that an appreciably better alternative is sometimes very hard to find, and, if you do find it, it won’t just be, say, double but about ten times the price.

On the flip side, I own plenty of cheap tools that are perfectly ok for my needs.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

One of my favourite ‘up-market’ tools [purchased very cheaply at a car-boot sale] is this ratcheting screwdriver:

It only does what the cheap ones do … but in every little detail it does it better !

Patent available here: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DUS4777852A

use the 3-dot menu to download the document.

MichaelG.

[Wade BeattyParticipant @wadebeatty78296]

This video shows how to make your own very accurate ange blocks, I have made a few myself.

Wade

[Author]

Posts