Convertors v Inverters

Convertors v Inverters

Home Forums General Questions Convertors v Inverters

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 53 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #838013
    larry phelan 1
    Participant
      @larryphelan1

      Good day everyone,

      I am thinking about replacing my 7,5 kw rotary convertor with a digital inverter in order to power my lathe 2HP and my mill 2HP.

      The reason is that I no longer need the capacity of the rotary unit since I no longer have much use for the big planer or spindle moulder, each with big motors.  It seems like overkill to run a motor that size just to power a lathe, and very costly.

      I have seen mentioned a Company called Drives Direct who seem to produce a whole range of such units, and I would like to know does anyone on the Forum have any experience of their products, good or bad. I intend to get in touch with them anyway, in order to get more details, but would just like to get feedback from groundlevel.

      Thanks in advance for any and all tips.

      #838016
      Michael Gilligan
      Participant
        @michaelgilligan61133

        I have never dealt with them … but they tell a good story !

        On-message, if a little ‘shouty’ 🙂

        https://www.drivesdirect.co.uk

        MichaelG.

        #838018
        larry phelan 1
        Participant
          @larryphelan1

          Yes Michael, I got that impression too ! That,s why I asked !

          Thanks for your input, never too far wrong.

          #838019
          Wade Beatty
          Participant
            @wadebeatty78296

            I have a 5hp 240 single phase to 415 three phase inverter from Drives Direct running my lathe and mill. It has worked flawlessly for many years. Others will chime in on the inherent flaws of these inverters but, I would buy a replacement if it failed.

             

            Wade

            #838024
            Roderick Jenkins
            Participant
              @roderickjenkins93242

              Some years ago now but I bought my vfd motor and inverter for the Super 7 from Drives Direct after discussions with them at an ME show.  I had some issues with earth leakage and DD were happy to swap out the inverter for a more suitable model.  So, I was happy with the service I received.

              Rod

              #838040
              DC31k
              Participant
                @dc31k

                A second and more recent UK supplier of the same device as Drives Direct is JFK Electrical, based in Northern Ireland.

                I, too, have had a Drives Direct unit for many years and would similarly replace it like-for-like if the magic smoke appeared tomorrow.

                Is it permitted to say that there are now (Amazon and Ali) many suppliers of 230v single phase in 415v three phase out VFDs? Thay are a lot more reasonably priced than ‘digital’ ones. XSY-AT4 is a generic model for them. Three individual boxes (one for lathe, one for mill, one spare) could be more economic than the suppliers above.

                #838060
                old mart
                Participant
                  @oldmart

                  Another highly recommended supplier of inverters is the “Inverter drive supermarket”. Some of their VFD’s have the added free bonus of their “quick start guides” in pdf form which the user can print. The guides make setting up and switch gear so easy to understand that even I had no difficulty in installing with remote controls to a standard necessary for a museum. The installation was checked fully by one of the volunteers who is a licenced electrician.

                   

                  https://inverterdrive.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyIDZnOuk_gIVR9DtCh2SewVGEAAYASAAEgI1wfD_BwE

                  #838069
                  southernchap
                  Participant
                    @southernchap

                    If you really want to buy new then I don’t think DriveDirect are particularly expensive and if they’re as good as their word, you’ll get support for your money.

                    However, I’d recommend taking a look on eBay for second hand VFD’s (Variable Frequency Drives, AKA inverters). If you stick to the good brands, you don’t have to worry about second hand VFDs not working.  VFDs either work or they don’t, and if they don’t work, you get a refund.

                    Paul of Haxby Shed fame on YouTube is fond of the IMO Jaguar Cub VFDs and they can be found for quite reasonable prices on eBay.

                    Other reputable names are Allen Bradley, Lenze, Mitsubishi and Siemens.  Delixi are a Chinese brand, but their VFDs are aimed at industrial usage, so they are supposed to be reasonably close in reliability to the Western makes.

                    One other important thing to consider is loss of torque at lower frequencies.  With the cheaper/older VFDs this was more of a problem.  Newer models tend to have what’s known as SVC mode (sensorless vector control) which can adjust the voltage in line with the frequency and other parameters.  You probably want SVC on any VFD you get.

                    In any case, it’s still suggested that one should go up a size in VFD, to give one some headroom. So for your 2 HP motors, you’d aim for a 3 HP capable VFD.

                    Now, I’m breaking that rule on my lathe as I have a 2 HP 3 phase motor with a 2 HP VFD, but then my lathe is a Warco 918 (so the old Taiwanese generic 9×20) and I got the 2 HP motor dirt cheap.  The clutch on this lathe is going to start slipping long before I ever even get near using 1.5 HP, let alone 2 HP!

                    One final thing.  Someone will come on this thread and suggest Newton Tesla.  Now, I’m sure they offer a good all-in-one solution, and offer good support but I consider them really rather overpriced.  Buying a VFD to suit an existing motor or buying both a VFD and a 3 phase motor, setting up an enclosure with the necessary filters and breakers, and doing the wiring isn’t really that difficult and ought to be something any of us here should be capable of.  It just takes a bit of information-finding, and some thought.  It feels like Newton-Tesla are trading on people’s lack of self-confidence to sell their packages, at what I consider to be an inflated price.

                    #838083
                    larry phelan 1
                    Participant
                      @larryphelan1

                      First of all, I must thank everyone for such quick answers, many of which are much in line with what I thought. I have been in touch with Drives Direct and am awaiting a response and will up-date as soon as I receive one  It all comes down to price and it may well prove cheaper to carry on with my rotary since it will not be required to run full time.  It just seemed like an interesting idea, better to use a smaller unit rather than a 7,5 KW beast to run a 2 HP motor.

                      Again, my thanks to everyone, all useful feedback and all welcome.

                      #838112
                      Julie Ann
                      Participant
                        @julieann
                        On southernchap Said:

                        ….One other important thing to consider is loss of torque at lower frequencies.

                        I am afraid that is incorrect; there is not a loss of torque, but a loss of power.

                        Consider a 3-phase induction motor running at base speed. In the UK that is the speed at 50Hz. At base speed the full applied voltage is just sufficient to cause the rated current to flow in each winding. As the frequency decreases the voltage needed to cause the rated current to flow drops so the VFD will reduce the applied voltage to keep the rated current flowing. To a first approximation motor torque is proportional to motor current.

                        Since the current is constant as the frequency decreases the torque stays constant as well. However, since the speed decreases in proportion to the decrease in frequency the power produced also decreases.

                        To summarise, at speeds below base speed the torque stays constant but power decreases.

                        Cheaper VFDs use scalar control, aka volts per Hertz control. This is open loop and follows a V/f curve. In other words the applied voltage reduces as the inverse of the frequency. Very simply half the frequency needs half the applied voltage. Scalar control is simple to implement but runs into problems at low frequencies when winding and rotor resistance become significant and the V/f curve is no longer a good fit.

                        Vector control, aka field oriented control, is very different. The mathematics is quite complex but essentially involves transforming the rotating vector with time varying parameters, inherent in an inductor motor, into a two dimensional vector with time invariant parameters. The operation is known as the Park transform. In the transform space there are two currents in quadrature, D and Q. The D component controls field flux linkage while the Q component controls torque. The beauty of vector control is that the torque (Q) can be controlled directly in the model, and independently of D, without having to worry about what is actually happening in the motor windings.

                        Vector control can be open loop, sensorless, or closed loop with sensors. A limitation of the sensorless method is that there is a minimum frequency, around 1Hz, below which control is lost. For full torque at zero speed sensors on the rotor are needed.

                        Full torque at zero speed might not be needed on manual machine tools, but it is needed on electric vehicles which is where I gained my experience with VFDs and motor control.

                        Julie

                        #838120
                        old mart
                        Participant
                          @oldmart

                          Thanks, Julie, for explaining sensorless vector control, it is set by default in the Invertek Optidrive that I bought for the museum’s Tom Senior light vertical. It has performed faultlessly for years now set for 25-75Hz chosen because of the power limitations from very low frequencies. We also use the four speed belt drive when it’s needed.

                          #838135
                          southernchap
                          Participant
                            @southernchap

                            Julie, thank you, that was a brilliant reply, no need to say sorry! 👍

                            I was vaguely nervous that my understanding and description in this post was significantly lacking on a technical level, and so it was.

                            I’ll need to do some more ‘homework’ on this subject, with your post as a starting point, because the feeling of an extremely fuzzy and inadequate understanding of a subject is a feeling I do not relish.

                            I’m entirely happy to be corrected as you have done in your post, as it gives me the kick to improve my comprehension.  So once again, thank you. 😊👍

                            #838191
                            DC31k
                            Participant
                              @dc31k

                              As is usual here, due to not reading properly the initial post in the thread, there are some misleading answers.

                              The OP states he wants to replace a rotary convertor and is considering the Drives Direct offering for this purpose.

                              It is unstated, but obvious with a moment’s thought that the input to the converter is 230v single phase and the output of the rotary is 415v three phase. The suggested Drives Direct replacement matches this.

                              That means the ‘Inverter Drive Supermarket’ and ‘look on eBay’ suggestions are poorly made as neither will provide an input/output voltage/phase combination that matches the OP’s current set up.

                              Not mentioning this explicitly is doing the OP a massive injustice. Yes, a 230v three phase output VFD likely can be made to work, but remaining silent on the work involved in doing so is bad form.

                              #838218
                              larry phelan 1
                              Participant
                                @larryphelan1

                                I was just hoping to do a straight swap, disconnect my rotary/ connect in the inverter, leaving all existing sockets/wiring ect in place.

                                Perhaps not that simple ?

                                #838311
                                old mart
                                Participant
                                  @oldmart

                                  Possibly, but you may loose the versatility added by an extra range of speed control. Have a look inside the motor connection boxes there may be the option of changing from star to delta. The mass of relays common on three phase machines might not be needed at all.

                                  #838370
                                  Nealeb
                                  Participant
                                    @nealeb

                                    Be very careful of doing a straight swap. The typical VFD needs a fixed connection to its load with no switches of any kind between VFD and load. There are VFDs and, I assume, fixed-frequency converters that can be connected like this but you must check with the supplier.

                                    With my own three-phase lathe, I connected the VFD directly to the motor and was able to use spare contacts on the contactors to switch the control signals for forward/reverse to the VFD. But because there was no permanent three-phase available in the control box, I had to do a bit of rewiring to provide a separate supply for the control box (in fact, an external site transformer to give 110V). I even repurposed the inch/run switch to signal the VFD to go to 25Hz for a half-speed option.. This all works fine but not a trivial job!

                                    Bottom line – be very careful about what you are doing and make very sure that you get a VFD or converter that suits the way you are going to use it.

                                    #838416
                                    Julie Ann
                                    Participant
                                      @julieann

                                      One also needs to be aware that a VFD does not output sine waves. Instead the outputs are PWM signals with a carrier frequency often around 8kHz; the carrier frequency is normally a parameter that can be set within the VFD. The inductance of the motor windings ignores the high frequency content. Control electrics are unlikely to be as forgiving.

                                      In general it is not sensible to try and run the control gear from the same VFD output as the motor. Contactors usually run from 240VAC or 110VAC single phase derived from the incoming 3-phase via a transformer.

                                      Julie

                                      #838453
                                      larry phelan 1
                                      Participant
                                        @larryphelan1

                                        Much useful information there, for which I thank everyone.

                                        There is one thing I dont understand, Old Mart mentioned checking the motor to see if it could be connected in Delta, I,m not quite sure how this would help since it would still need a 3 Phase supply. Where would this come from ?

                                        If all else fails I may have to fall back on Plan B, which is to replace the lathe motor by a  220v single phase one. This might not be so easy to do on the mill, as it is gear driven.  So, for the moment, it,s back to the drawing board !

                                        Just seems a pity to have to run a 10 HP motor in order to run a 2 HP one. Not that there is anything wrong with the rotary unit, it works first class and has no problem handling my bigger woodwork machines [something a static one was unable to do ], so I would still retain it anyway.

                                        Just as an afterthought, I was not too interested in speed control as I find the machine speeds OK as they are.

                                        #838494
                                        Nealeb
                                        Participant
                                          @nealeb

                                          “Simple” VFDs that are 220V single-phase in, 220V three-phase out, have been available for a long time. If you can connect your motor in delta rather than star configuration, then it will run on 220V and one of those VFDs will do fine. More recently, 220 in, 380V out VFDs have become available at much lower cost which means using the motor as-is – useful if it is difficult to modify. These latter VFDs are available cheaply from China, or perhaps more reliably and with better support from UK suppliers at higher cost. Warnings about no switches between VFD and motor still apply!

                                          If you are doing this with a mill, single motor (no coolant pump, oil pump, etc) then one of the newer VFDs controlled through its front panel or, much better, a pendant control would probably be the easiest way forward.

                                           

                                          #838508
                                          noel shelley
                                          Participant
                                            @noelshelley55608

                                            When one is talking 3Phase one tends to think 415V as the OP does. The modern single to 3phase inverter is supplying 220V – so simply fitting one will not work ! If the motors involved can be wired for Delta rather than star that’s fine – re wire and it works, BUT what control gear is being used? Another issue ! For someone who understands all of this it’s easy BUT highly dangerous for someone who doesn’t.  Just be careful.   Noel.

                                            #838572
                                            Wade Beatty
                                            Participant
                                              @wadebeatty78296

                                              I do not use the variable frequency on my Drives Direct inverter 230 x 415V. I am happy to change the belts on my Omnimill and my lathe has an excelent and easily managed speed range. Years of use and no issues at all. Not needing the VF mode means no “hotwiring” the controls, all the wiring stays original.

                                              Wade

                                              #838598
                                              larry phelan 1
                                              Participant
                                                @larryphelan1

                                                Even more useful info here, some of which I was not aware of.

                                                Yes, I did assume that these units took in 220v and gave out 380v as standard, seems not ! I will check the motor connection boxes on both machines to clear up that point.

                                                Also, I did not intend to have any switches between the unit and the machine, just to use the existing cable run from rotary position to socket outlet, having disconnected the rotary, of course.

                                                There is much to study here,

                                                BHW, I did take a look on Ebay ! such a minefield ! I think you would really need to know exactly what you are looking for to go there ! I found it very confusing, so I need to wise up a lot more on the subject.

                                                All I can do at this stage is to thank everyone for their input, because as they say :

                                                ” Every little helps “

                                                #838685
                                                old mart
                                                Participant
                                                  @oldmart

                                                  Just because your existing setup is more than your present needs doesn’t mean that it is wasting electricity. The rotary converter won’t consune 7.5 Kw if the machine in use only consumes 1 1/2 Kw. Try checking the power used through your meter. The manager of the museum was worried about the ammount of electricity that the lathes and mills used, he had no idea that all four used less than the electric heater he had in his office.

                                                  Having variable speed control in addition to mechanical gearing comes in handy when a slight change of rpm may help reduce chatter.

                                                  #838735
                                                  larry phelan 1
                                                  Participant
                                                    @larryphelan1

                                                    Thank you Old Mart for that, it,s something well worth checking, since my rotary is so simple and works so well [much like myself ! ]  I would hate to have to replace it, only to find a need for it later, as they say  “It does exactly what it says on the box ” and not many things do that !  I,m too old now to take on any more confusion.

                                                    #838736
                                                    Dave Wootton
                                                    Participant
                                                      @davewootton

                                                      Have to agree with Old Mart, I have an ancient 5hp rotary converter made by Highflow Developments, which has a huge 5HP pilot motor, when we first got a smart meter I checked how much power it used when running light, can’t remember the figure but was surprised how low it was (can’t re check it as it’s in store at present). When I had a Bridgeport two speed and a Colchester master it ran them perfectly but had to have a 20A supply. Now I have a Myford VMF with a much smaller two speed motor it was running from a 13A plug top as a temporary measure, the new workshop has a dedicated supply waiting for it. It does have the great advantage that it’s possible to buy 3 phase machinery and just plug it in. If it goes up in smoke tomorrow ( possible given it’s age) I would definitely consider replacing it with another rotary, probably of a smaller capacity as there will not be any more large machines. You obviously do not have the variable speed option, but got used to that working in industry.

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 53 total)
                                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                    Latest Replies

                                                    Home Forums General Questions Topics

                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                    View full reply list.