BCA jigborer motor

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BCA jigborer motor

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  • #14113
    Matt Mackeson
    Participant
      @mattmackeson
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      #514348
      Matt Mackeson
      Participant
        @mattmackeson

        Hello all,

        I have recently acquired a nice BCA mk3 Jig borer that I am looking to get running in my home workshop. It currently has the old 3 phase 380/420v motor attached. I am having trouble trying to figure out a replacement dual voltage 3ph or 1ph motor with the same bolt patter ( 5 1/2'' x 3'&#39 to mount in its place. ( I have very limited knowledge of such things)

        I know there are a few BCA owners on here so was wondering what solutions others had used.

        Any advice would be much appreciated.

        Matt

        #514366
        HOWARDT
        Participant
          @howardt

          Motors are sized to standards, have a look at the motor and it should have a frame size such as D112 as a metric or a Nema size such as 48. Metric sizes relate to shaft height. Depends how old the machine is but metric motors have been in use in the UK for most of my working life, 50+ years. With the details you can then look at motor manufacturers sheets to choose a motor. Alternatively as some will say get an inverter.

          #514367
          not done it yet
          Participant
            @notdoneityet

            Can you not either convert or get it converted to 220V operation and then use a VFD to drive it?

            My second motor conversion in the last couple of months, from star-only to delta, is sitting at my feet awaiting completion. It’s not a difficult job, although for some motors it may not be easy or even possible.

            #514370
            AStroud
            Participant
              @astroud

              Mine came with a 1ph motor fitted (3kw !!). It had been fitted by someone drilling mounting holes in the column about 5 1/2" down from the top mounting holes and I am guessing they must be tapped. Spacers are used to align with the pad. Otherwise I would have thought an adaptor plate would suffice.

              Edited By AStroud on 19/12/2020 15:51:05

              #514375
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133

                When I bought mine [about 35 years ago] it came with the original 3-phase motor and [at that time] I couldn’t find anyone interested in converting it …. so when I went to see Mr Godfrey at Tenga Engineering, I left it with him in case anyone needed a spare.

                I fitted a 1/4 HP single phase motor, using a ‘temporary’ adapter plate [thick plywood] and have never yet found the need to change it.

                One day, when all the other jobs are done …

                MichaelG.

                #514387
                John Haine
                Participant
                  @johnhaine32865

                  Matt, if you can, much the best approach is to fit a VFD and use the existing motor. It is presumably connected in "Star" for 380-420 V but to use a standard low cost inverter it needs to be changed to Delta. If the motor star connection point, where the three windings are connected together at one end, is brought out to the terminals, this is very easy. You should find that the cable enters the motor at a junction box with a screwed on cover – remove this and take some photos of what is inside, showing the terminals and the existing wiring. Also take a photo of the rating plate on the motor which states the voltage, hp, current, speed and that sort of stuff. If we are lucky it will also indicate if a delta connection is possible. When you have photos post them here and we can advise if the conversion is straightforward.

                  #514390
                  Clive Foster
                  Participant
                    @clivefoster55965

                    Mine, albeit carrying a Sigma branding, had the motor mounted on a clearly home or shop brew L bracket somewhat after the fashion of that shown in the Ultra pictures on Tonys website **LINK** . I don't recall whether the column was extended for the pivot bolt hole as per the Ultra or whether a stout flat plate had been bolted to the original motor mounting holes. The motor in question was end mounted with bolts going directly into the end bell rather than flange mounted like the one shown on the Ultra pictures.

                    If the mounting geometry had been correctly thought out it would have been some significant improvement on the standard belt run but it had been hung too low so the pivot was geometrically poorly behaved. Given the difficulty of holding the motor whilst setting it at a, hopefully correct, angle it was not, in practice an improvement. In my view the standard arrangement, is at best, obnoxious so it takes real talent to come up with something that isn't an improvement.

                    I'd start over, junk the jockey pulleys and carry the motor on a simple swivel arm affixed to the rear of the column with a pivot positioned so as to mimic the head tilt. Probably need to make able to work on either side to keep the motor out of the way. Modern motors are so much lighter and smaller than the old ones that such things are practical. Especially if you follow Michael and use a 1/4 hp one. The motor on mine was an enormous 1/2 hp thing.

                    Clive

                    #514396
                    john fletcher 1
                    Participant
                      @johnfletcher1

                      Generally speaking it is easy to go from Star to Delta, its often shown on the back of the terminal box lid. There was a very good article on "here" a few years ago, with lots of pictures, clearly showing how to locate and bring out the extra three leads required. I'm sure a rewind shop would soon do it for you and then fit an inverter via the net for £50 or so, no need to buy an expensive one with all bells and whistles for the home workshop. John

                      #514400
                      Brian H
                      Participant
                        @brianh50089

                        Hello again Matt, I have also replied to you on your other query.

                        Brian

                        #514401
                        Brian H
                        Participant
                          @brianh50089

                          Hello again Matt, I have also replied to you on your other query.

                          Brian

                          #514414
                          not done it yet
                          Participant
                            @notdoneityet

                            its often shown on the back of the terminal box lid.

                            It’s only shown there if the winding connections have all been brought out to the connection box – if the star point is within the motor, no delta option will be shown. It would likely be shown on the data plate as 220/440V dual voltage in that case – but that does not preclude splitting the star point and bring tails outside for delta connection.

                            #514421
                            Clive Steer
                            Participant
                              @clivesteer55943

                              I have a Mk3 BCA with its original two speed 3 phase motor which unfortunately is specially wound and can only be operated on 440 volts.

                              Not having 3 phase available and also wanting the machine to have the capability of variable speed I have fitted it with a 440 volt inverter powered from the domestic mains through a 240v to 440V auto-transformer. I have fixed the motor in its low speed configuration and configured the inverter to provide 100Hz at max speed to recover the higher speeds. The original motor is quite capable and has all the necessary guards so unless it is faulty I saw no reason to change it and although the auto-transformer/VFD kit is more complicated it does transform the machine and enable less belt changing. There are VFDs available that produce 440v output from 240v but these are less common and can be much more expensive if fitted with the more capable Power Factor Correction (PFC) front booster stage.

                              If one doesn't want variable speed or the complication that goes with it then a static converter can provide the 440v 3 phase.

                              Clive

                              #514426
                              William S
                              Participant
                                @williams

                                Hello Matt

                                If it is the original 3 phase motor it should be a 2 speed, 380/400volt motor which I was told does not and will not run on a 240volt VFD. A VFD does not step-up the voltage so one would have to have a 3 phase supply to run that particular motor on a 380 volt VFD. A VFD would also limit the motor to one speed setting.

                                What I did was to get a 240volt single phase to 400v 3 phase converter made by Transwave. This enabled the machine to retain its original motor, which corresponds up with the speed chart.

                                They turn up relatively regularly on ebay, or you could buy new. They do seem to hold there value and if one acquires any other 3 phase equipment it should happily run it.

                                In my opinion I haven't had any call for the variable speed function the speed available from the motor and belt combinations has suited all the original tooling adequately.

                                I like the originality about the machine, okay the belt system may seem archaic but it does work well when set up correctly.

                                Just my experience, William.

                                #514447
                                John Baron
                                Participant
                                  @johnbaron31275

                                  Hi Guys,

                                  I don't know if you are aware that there are 240 volt single phase input VFD's with 380/440 three phase outputs available.

                                  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000976184024.html

                                  HTH.

                                  #514450
                                  John Haine
                                  Participant
                                    @johnhaine32865

                                    Hmm. If you read the overview it is slightly ambiguous. Many of these inverters can output 380V 3 ph if supplied from two phases of a 3-ph supply so the input is 380V, but of course with variable frequency. If supplied from 220V they only output 220V. This one doesn't really clearly say that it does give 380V output since one of the several input options is 380V. Over on eBay there are a lot of rather more expensive devices also from China that will only supply 380V with a 380V input.

                                    #514454
                                    Nigel Graham 2
                                    Participant
                                      @nigelgraham2

                                      Matt

                                      It's simple to fit a new motor to the original mounting, by interposing an adaptor:

                                      I have just traipsed down the garden to remind myself what I did for my BCA.

                                      I bought it from one of our regular second-hand machinery dealers, who said it came from a university who had also made the somewhat functional-looking inverter dangling from the original motor, with a plug that might have been for a 16A or 32A mains – certainly not regular 13A household type.

                                      The dealer had nowhere in his warehouse to plug it in, so I had to buy it on sight. (I think I had been advised that would be so.) The machine itself was in good condition, despite a couple of small drill dimples in the table.

                                      I was not prepared to risk the electrics, so contacted Newton-Tesla.

                                      They were understandably worried about me sticking one of their nice new inverters and controllers on a motor of known type but unknown history, and equally understandably, keen to sell a nice new motor too.

                                      I had no problems fitting the replacement motor, entailing 2 items : –

                                      – An adaptor-plate. I used 20mm thick PVC in near-BCA Grey. You could use aluminium, or as Michael G, says above, plywood! Four clearance holes match the original mounting, and 4 tapped M8 match the smaller new motor's feet. (Use screws with their heads in counter-bores if in plywood, of course.) I turned a broad but shallow central recess from each side to stiffen the plate – possibly needlessly, but PVC is fairly flexible.

                                      – A bush to fit the original pulley on the smaller, new spindle. The important point of course was concentricity. Plus a new key, or the original modified, to pass through the bush wall and fit its new home.

                                      So all quite straightforwards, helped by the machine's open layout.

                                      The tapped / counter-bored holes are necessary to set the plate flush against the pad on the column, which with the plate's thickness help put the pulley in about the right place.

                                      #514503
                                      John Baron
                                      Participant
                                        @johnbaron31275
                                        Posted by John Haine on 19/12/2020 22:10:49:

                                        Hmm. If you read the overview it is slightly ambiguous. Many of these inverters can output 380V 3 ph if supplied from two phases of a 3-ph supply so the input is 380V, but of course with variable frequency. If supplied from 220V they only output 220V. This one doesn't really clearly say that it does give 380V output since one of the several input options is 380V. Over on eBay there are a lot of rather more expensive devices also from China that will only supply 380V with a 380V input.

                                        Whilst that might be true for some devices it isn't in this case ! Its a straight 230 volts AC input and 380 volts three phase output. Yes there are some 380 volt three phase input 380 volt three phase output ones on there.

                                        ecogoo.jpg

                                        #514514
                                        Matt Mackeson
                                        Participant
                                          @mattmackeson

                                          Thank you all for the comprehensive replies. I don't think I have ever had such a quick and thorough set of replies to any post on any other forum!

                                          I took the access plate off and found this handy wiring diagram for the two speed switch. If I understand this correctly the motor uses both star and delta for the two speeeds?

                                          So it seems I have three options:

                                          • a new dual voltage 3ph with a VFD and adapter plate
                                          • a rotary phase converter
                                          • Look further into the VFD's posted by John. From what I understand this would give me a single speed on the current motor but then give me speed control through the vfd?

                                          I am learning a lot about electric motors through all this so thank you all again for the help!

                                          #514516
                                          Matt Mackeson
                                          Participant
                                            @mattmackeson

                                            Ah no I think I made an error there. Because the current motor isn't dual voltage I wouldn't have any speed control with one of the 240V to 380V vfd's. Is that correct?

                                            Regards,

                                            Matt

                                            #514524
                                            Nigel Graham 2
                                            Participant
                                              @nigelgraham2

                                              Oops! I made a significant omission in my first reply – the guard over the motor-pulley!

                                              The location of my jig-borer in a tight corner probably makes it less necessary but it ought still be fitted.

                                              It was deigned to fit the original motor but I think it would be fairly easy to make for it an adaptor-plate screwed to the tapped holes provided in the face of the motor.

                                              #514525
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by Matt Mackeson on 20/12/2020 11:42:25:

                                                […]

                                                I took the access plate off and found this handy wiring diagram for the two speed switch. […]

                                                .

                                                Thanks for posting that useful photo, Matt … I have grabbed a copy for future reference yes

                                                No immediate need, of course.

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #514527
                                                John Haine
                                                Participant
                                                  @johnhaine32865
                                                  Posted by Matt Mackeson on 20/12/2020 11:45:42:

                                                  Ah no I think I made an error there. Because the current motor isn't dual voltage I wouldn't have any speed control with one of the 240V to 380V vfd's. Is that correct?

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Matt

                                                  The voltage has little or no influence on the speed of an induction motor, speed is controlled by frequency and number of poles – hence VFD = Variable Frequency Drive. From John's post above it looks like that VFD does convert 220 V single phase to 380V 3 phase, so is a voltage doubling inverter. So that should do the job fine with the current motor. It looks like the motor must switch from 2 pole to 4 pole for speed control. With the VFD you would simply set to the high speed parallel star connection (which presumably needs no change to the wiring) and do all the speed control through the VFD.

                                                  #514557
                                                  Matt Mackeson
                                                  Participant
                                                    @mattmackeson
                                                    Posted by John Haine on 20/12/2020 12:33:40

                                                    The voltage has little or no influence on the speed of an induction motor, speed is controlled by frequency and number of poles – hence VFD = Variable Frequency Drive. From John's post above it looks like that VFD does convert 220 V single phase to 380V 3 phase, so is a voltage doubling inverter. So that should do the job fine with the current motor. It looks like the motor must switch from 2 pole to 4 pole for speed control. With the VFD you would simply set to the high speed parallel star connection (which presumably needs no change to the wiring) and do all the speed control through the VFD.

                                                    Thanks John, so would this be suitable? he 0.75w version.

                                                    VFD

                                                    #514561
                                                    John Haine
                                                    Participant
                                                      @johnhaine32865

                                                      What power is your motor? But a 0.75 kW VFD should be ok I think.

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