Metal work at schools

This topic has 31 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 12 February 2012 at 00:41 by MICHAEL WILLIAMS.

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9 February 2012 at 12:05 #11886
Nobby
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@nobby
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9 February 2012 at 12:05 #84222
Nobby
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@nobby
Hi Guys

My Grandson want’s to be an engineer, but all the projects he is doing at school is cooking. His age is 13 & he love,s helping me in my workshop

What’s going on? If find the photo of him under instruction on my lathe I will post it

Nobby
9 February 2012 at 12:52 #84225
Diane Carney
Moderator
@dianecarney30678
Hi Nobby

Our daughter is 13 too. She’s just chosen her options, one of which is cooking, but she also loves being in the workshop with her grandad. Last week she was marking out, bandsawing and draw-filing.

Schools are obliged to give all children as broad an education as they can which includes cooking. There are probably many in his class that detest the thought of having to do technology, ether ‘design’ or ‘systems’ (which is about as close to engineering as schools get as far as I can see). If it’s a good school he will be changing about between different kinds of technology subjects. It just happens to be cooking at the moment.

Keep bringing him into your workshop; he will learn far more there than any school can teach him anyway. Then he might even make you your tea! (Our Jeanie makes the tea sometimes … it’s great!)

Diane
9 February 2012 at 13:44 #84228
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
The last couple of decades has seen a complete decline in technology in schools.

This without doubt was through the then Gobment changing policy in education.

We cannot find apprentices, they do not want to do manual work but push buttons or surf the internet.

I call it, ‘Lack of interface between hand and brain’.

The basic principles of metal work, recognition of metals and cutting techniques are lost as the young of today live in a throwaway world.

Maintenance or repair is lost on them, lucky is the child who has a parent able to teach and hold their attention on things technical.

Awaiting a storm of words about this, but remember a lot of machinery came on the market because of schools closing workshops and you may have been lucky and obtained a nice machine at a good price because of it!

There is now a new incentive to create an apprenticeship scheme and not before time as industry is screaming out for capable people who are able to read and write properly and be able to do manual skills.

Clive
9 February 2012 at 14:01 #84230
Russell Eberhardt
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@russelleberhardt48058
If he wants to be an engineer keep encouraging him in your workshop but also encourage him to learn as much maths and physics as possible. Engineering isn’t just about manual skills.

Oh, and take him to the Science Museum and other engineering rich visits.

Russell (retired chartered engineer)

Edited By russell eberhardt on 09/02/2012 14:02:50
9 February 2012 at 14:26 #84233
AJS
Participant
@ajs
To give it its grand title now, cooking is Food Technology. I hope he is doing some cooking rather than writing about it!

I am a technician in a 6th form college now, having in my apprentice days 50+ years ago followed the toolmaking/general engineering path.

In my experience, teachers now in practical subjects are not trained in metal work at all, in fact newer teachers have very little practical knowledge of woodwork either. They come out of teacher training college with a degree which is fine, and may well be able to teach the theory necessary for their students to pass appropriate exams. However, they have not trained in the practical side of the subjects to any extent and rely on us technicians to fill in the gaps.

Maybe that is fine but we are a rarer breed I fear, (69 next week), and when we have gone so will a lot of skills which are not taught any more, but it seems are still required.

Alan (ex I Eng)
9 February 2012 at 14:55 #84234
Nobby
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@nobby
Hi Again

Both my Grandsons are good with computers So They may be good at programming c n c machines . I went back to college in my 50s I’M 74 now and got distinction in nc/cnc part programming I hope they can do that . My son was an aircraft engineer & worked on the last Sunderland at Calshot that went to the USA.

Thank for all your replys

Nobby
9 February 2012 at 15:00 #84235
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
Health and safety and child protection stuff and being sued if junior gets hurt means we are de-skilling our youngsters

Our children are going to be the safest best educated zero-practical-skills people in human history

If you want to teach kids useful stuff nowadays you must do it yourself.

Don’t rely on those government bods, they’re all idiots with weird agendas
9 February 2012 at 15:04 #84237
Kevin Bennett
Participant
@kevinbennett25223
Hi all my grandson is only 9 months old and I cannot wait to get him in my workshop the hand over all my knowledge and experiences and getting him working. I also have the full support of his Dad as well as from next month we have him all day as his mum goes back to work full time.

Good time ahead

Ty Kevin
9 February 2012 at 15:27 #84240
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi Ady 1

I would disagree that they are going to be the safest.

Not having learnt the hard way, I doubt they have any safety sense.

regards David
9 February 2012 at 17:24 #84248
Nobby
Participant
@nobby
Hi Guys

Found photo of Grandson in my workshop under supervision . A bit younger in this.
9 February 2012 at 20:39 #84263
Jon
Participant
@jon
Cant see what hes doing Nobby.

Many valid comments above, i think the health and safety garbage has put to bed any form of on the job training in schools even if they did have some one passed off to use the machinery.

Too many what iffs.

Quite true Clockie i am an even rarer breed being one of three people alive and one of two below retirement age in the world with specific know how on what i used to do. When its gone its gone and millions of £ as good as scrap.

Even 25 year ago graduates were frowned upon by everyone except the people that took them on. Life in reality is totally different to than in practice. All it means they have the ability to learn from a book or pc in theory. We all know theory dont exactly work and common sense prevails.

Theres no better training than ‘in at the deep end’ ie get grafting no namby pamby over the top protection slowing things down 6 fold. Ludicrous what you see on telly Health and Safety gone stupid, the root of all evil.

Quiet agree also David having had to work with a few, quite scary and had to be told several times with warnings and still kept on doing unsafe things because they had no comprehension of working a machine and getting the feeling for whats happening.
9 February 2012 at 21:08 #84271
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
I had my own workshop from about 13/14. No real power tools though but a soldering iron and a Juneero – and I could nick my Dad’s power drill.

Mostly just messing about with bits and pieces and making plastic kits, model boats and electronics. Always thought model engineering was for retirement – getting a mini lathe at age 37 was brilliant decision!

Neil
9 February 2012 at 22:13 #84277
The Merry Miller
Participant
@themerrymiller
Lovely to see the word “Juneero” again Stub.

What happy memories I have of this tool from when I was very young.

Len. P.
9 February 2012 at 22:20 #84279
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
new problem added…It has been stated that “Any firm taking on under 18s. Need to have all staff CRB checked and “Child Protection” trained…apprentiships or even employment for under 18’s looks dead in the water.
9 February 2012 at 22:53 #84280
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
My granddaughter is 7 and is hooked on soldering!

Like most children she is inquisitive and a quick learner, in fact I am flabbergasted at how competent her and her sister (3 years) are at using computers and smart phones. Once they know which button accesses a ‘app’ or saves the drawing they’ve done they remember it. They even cope with different operating systems without thinking about it.

The soldering I mentioned is on printed circuit boards, I bought some of the simpler kits made by Velleman and let her read and follow the instructions, insert all the components and solder them. She has made a LED star and a LED Xmas tree on normal PCB, also an illuminated badge on a surface mount board. I think its too early for her to do mechanical work in the workshop but the biggest satisfaction I get is seeing how she has become interested in what makes things work.

Apart for guiding her I let her do everything herself, she installed over 60 LEDs on the star, and every one was the correct polarity, probably a better success rate that me!

Ian P
10 February 2012 at 08:52 #84283
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
From the posts offered you can see that the young ones are, ‘Self motivated’

This is a good thing as that motivation will carry on and they will not forget the lessons learnt.

This brings up:- Where is the motivation for the rest of the youngsters?

Now the subject of CRB testing for instructors for work with under 16’s.

It is a fact I would not be interested as I am sure my motivation would be gone by the time 6 to 9 months have gone by to obtain it!

Legislation has the whole country by the throat and has stifled the life out of any project even before it starts.

Clive
10 February 2012 at 10:59 #84289
Nobby
Participant
@nobby
Hi Clive & Guys

My two grandsons are scouts . And there Mother said she would help the group as it was going to close because the leaders were leaving . You guessed it she has to be vetted etc

In the meantime the group is closed.

In the 60s I was vice chairman of the local model club no problems.

Nobby
10 February 2012 at 11:14 #84291
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Posted by David Clark 1 on 09/02/2012 15:27:28:

Hi Ady 1

I would disagree that they are going to be the safest.

Not having learnt the hard way, I doubt they have any safety sense.

regards David

Absolutely! If kids aren’t exposed to any danger they never learn to spot it and avoid it. While I was at school I made fireworks and various explosives and had many electric shocks from my home projects. Wouldn’t be allowed now.

Posted by jason udall on 09/02/2012 22:20:40:
new problem added…It has been stated that “Any firm taking on under 18s. Need to have all staff CRB checked and “Child Protection” trained…apprentiships or even employment for under 18’s looks dead in the water.

When this idiocy was introduced I was teaching martial arts to children and adults as a volunteer for many years. I stopped teaching the children rather than pay for the checking and training. It’s the children who suffer.

Russell.
10 February 2012 at 12:14 #84295
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
Anyone who works with the public gets checked now.

Taxi drivers Scout Leaders etc etc

The fines etc for breaking the rules can be pretty hefty

Apparently Queen Elizabeth broke the rules by visiting two different schools within a single month while not being CRB certified

To date she remains at large and has not been arrested and bundled into a police car
10 February 2012 at 13:41 #84300
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
I have two grandsons and a granddaughter. To date, only one of those three has shown any interest in practical stuff – and he showed it when he was five and asked if he could knock the plastic plugs into holes in the wall after he had seen me do one. So I let him, and OK, we had to stop him knocking through into next doors, but he was successful. And that’s been the story right through the years – let him have a go, even if he made a mess of it (never did by the way). The result is that today, at 16, he is capable of having a go, and making a creditable job of, just about anything he needs to. Even his engineering teacher at school (proper engineering by the way) said how good he was.

Unfortunately, he eventually decided against engineering and is instead doing an agricultural engineering course (ie maintenance and repair of agricultural machinery) at an Agricultural College with the possibility of going on to do a degree course. Not really surprising actually as his father runs an agricultural contracting business and the lad himself has already passed his trtor driving test.

But it’s interesting what he can do: design & build, with help, a three story guinea pig hut; raised vegatable growing beds; removed a broken key from a lock and other things as well.

And yes, I’m proud. And why not?

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
11 February 2012 at 11:24 #84385
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
A number of high schools around the South Island NZ are getting into engineering in quite a big way. One project is building Grass Carts (go-cart type vehicle), they get sponcers for parts, and materials, then the build up the frame, steering,brakes etc, fit the motor. After all that, the schools get together and race their carts, there are points for winning, and construction.

At the moment I’m keen for some night classes to be held, I’d like a basic course in TIG welding. The local school has upgraded its metal work class rooms, the old workshop was quite good with half a dozen Boxfords, and a Myford 10 the was converted to CNC, they also had a shaper, but no milling machines(they have now). I remember the Teacher there 10 years ago saying that as far as he knew no one had used the shaper, and he did’nt now how to, so I got it going one night at a class. Shapers are neat machines! Ian S C
11 February 2012 at 11:44 #84389
Nobby
Participant
@nobby
Hi

William my Grandson loves this little shaper I’m the power source !!!! Nobby
11 February 2012 at 12:06 #84391
Romeo R.L
Participant
@romeor-l
Hello Everyone,

The only way that i could get close to doing engineering would be to do it as a BTEC once i am 16. This however is not the best way to become an engineer.

I recently only discovered my passion for model engineering and as it was mentioned above health and safety prevent you from doing everything these days which is why we only have 1 lathe in school, they used to have around 20 lathes from what i am told.

It seems as if nowdays barely anybody is qualified to teach metal work in school. It is all wood work now, which is safer but simply not even close to as much fun in my eyes,

Regards,

Romeo
11 February 2012 at 13:25 #84400
Ketan Swali
Participant
@ketanswali79440
Romeo,

Where there is a will, there is a way. Do not be discouraged. See if there is a model engineering club near you. Most of these clubs are affiliated to the SMEE.

Link here: http://www.sm-ee.co.uk/

Some clubs are more active and friendly then others. Consider joining one. If you dont ask for help, you dont get. The club rules may suggest that there needs to be parental presence. Still, there are always ways around things, if you really want to learn.

Nowdays, there are forums such as this and youtube too. Just watch, read, listen ask and you can still learn. You might pick up good and bad habits and advice along the way, but that is part of learning.

Good Luck – Ketan.
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