Starting up again if I can find a plan

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

Hello, Ive been Model Engineering for a few years, Ive made quite a few small working model steam engines and for the past year or so can’t be bothered to make anymore so the shed has been shut up gathering dust. I made a working Flintlock pistol a few years ago, the barrel is fabricated from tube so cannot fire and the strike pan is mildsteel so would only damage the fizzen if used.

I want to make a Colt pistol from the 1860s, this will give me the interest to start up again, but the problem is finding a plan to make one, Ive checked out the Internet but can only find exploded drawings and no measurements. It wont be able to fire after Ive made it, any help please.

I made the Flintlock by one of those exploding drawings but made many mistakes on the way, I dont want to go through that frustration again.

Thanks for any replies Harry,  70th birthday on the 4th August.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Post #3 here, looks a good place to start:

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/colt-1851-navy.196986/

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ and a bit more work landed me here:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=wdshpbiz

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

What country are you in?
Many countries, including the UK, have strict laws regarding possession or making firearms or parts and even items that look like them.

You need to get propeer legal advice but my layman’s view of current UK law is:

You can own a vintage functional “cap & ball” or pinfire revolver but not use it or carry in public.

You cannot own or make a “realistic”model of a revolver, or other firearm, even made of plasic unless you can prove you are a re-enactor, film maker or similar. There is an exemption if significant parts are brighly coloured to indicate it’s not real

To own a “deactivated” modern firearm it must be deactivated to the lastest standard on transfer and has to be registered.

You can own a fully operational CO2 powered semi-automatic air pistol that is identical in appearance to a Glock, browning etc if over 18 with no licence required.

No it’s not logical, but some of he offences carry a mandatory prison sentence.

Robert.

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

Ive looked on the site Soldier of Fortune and they sell replicas, before 1870 they will sell to the general public if over 18, over 1870 you need to be in a reinactment society. Defeating the object of making one as they are very cheap, or stripping one down and measuring, which I dont want to do.

Thanks for the replies

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

That is an interesting decision by Soldier of Fortune. While this guidance:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012/guide-on-firearms-licensing-law-accessible-version#chapter-2-definition-and-classification-of-firearms-and-ammunition

says “2.38 This definition of ‘realistic imitation firearm’ applies for the purposes of sections 36 and 37 of the 2006 Act. The term ‘real firearm’ is defined in section 38(7) as either a firearm of an actual make or model of a modern firearm, or a generic modern firearm. The term ‘modern firearm’ is defined in subsection 8 as a firearm other than one whose appearance would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating before 1870.”

I’d be wary about applying it to a revolver. The issue is that the average person won’t know the differenc between a pre 1870 revolver and a “modern” revolver. I’d not apply it to anything that uses a metallic cartridge. I assume Soldier of Fortune have taken legal advice but until it is tested in court no one knows for sure.

The risk of proscecution may be low (someone seeing you in the workshop and calling the police seems most likely route) but the consequences are very high, up to being shot by armed police, that it’s really not worth the risk.

Robert.

 

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

If you look at the Official Denix site, they have a pre 1870 gun that has cartridges  that the general public can buy, this gun is not on the Soldier of Fortune. Both sites state pre 1870 design is legal to purchase, Solder of Fortune sell the same guns almost half the price than the official Denix site. The gun I want to make will be powder and ball which Solder of Fortune sell ,the gun uses a ram rod on a cam to load the cylinders, as I said a pre 1870 design, with plans is what I need.

Harry.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I did find the rest of the sheet that Michael posted a partial image of yesterday. That would give you a lot of sizes and if scanned into a CAD package would allow other sizes to be picked up, certainly good enough to make a gun that for all except the bullet counters to spot the difference.

If you do go ahead, keep us posted of progress. I’m happy to see things being made no matter what the subject and would rather see that than read about the latest scam or chocolate wrapper.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Robert, I suppose an AK47 is out of the question ?

Such a pity !

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

I noticed that drawing from Michael but can’t see the dimentions, being a dummy how do I scan on a CAD package.

Thanks Harry

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well after a visit to specsavers

 

You could follow my link and get the whole sheet at a better resolution. Or opening Michale’s ebay link the first thing to do is click the image and it will come up larger and easily read.

When you have it open take a screen shot or use a snipping tool so the image can be saved as a .jpg.

Depending on the CAD it can differ but with Alibre I would then use the “trace” option to import the image. After that I tend to draw a line to a know dimension, in this case to match the 7.5″ barrel length. My line is not that long so a simple bit of maths will tell me I need to englarge the image by 1.72%

New line confirms I have the length right, also otated the image slightly. I can now draw lines and circles where there are no dimensions and the size of those will give me quite close sizes, a bit of common sense will be needed altering thing sto what may have actually been used eg the 99mm line may have been 4″ and the 7mm circle 9/32″

[doitagain]

On doitagain Said:

I noticed that drawing from Michael but can’t see the dimentions, being a dummy how do I scan on a CAD package.

Thanks Harry

That first fragment of a sketch [1851 Colt] is packed with dimensions

… here’s a crop from it [using my iPad]
.

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MichaelG.

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Jason beat me to it ^^^

[doitagain]

On doitagain Said:

[…] . The gun I want to make will be powder and ball which Solder of Fortune sell ,the gun uses a ram rod on a cam to load the cylinders, as I said a pre 1870 design, with plans is what I need.

Harry.

This ^^^ was a revelation … [my emboldening], so forget the Colt

Plenty of other offerings on that ebay listing

MichaelG.

 

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

Many thanks for your help, the project of making this will be a slow , Ive got all the equipment to make a decent job, looking forward to starting it.

 

Again thanks, Harry

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

Ive bitten the bullet and brought the drawing.

 

Harry

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As we know, the law is an Ass!  The intent in the UK is keep firearms away from criminals, terrorists and the mentally ill.  I agree with that wholeheartedly, but the legislation is clumsy, ambiguous and contradictory.

The result is serious offences go unpunished by the courts due to legal loopholes, and, because the definition of a firearm is extremely broad, the police pursue trivial cases.

A length of pipe blocked at one end with a fuse hole is a firearm, and so is a 4″  model of a Napoleonic cannon – unless it’s been blocked. And even if it’s been blocked, it can be argued that anyone with the right tools can enable it.  The concern is legitmate – there’s a criminal trade in reactivated guns and replicas modified to fire.  And in making ammunition for them.  Stupid, wicked people cannot be ignored.

Unfortunately mistakes are easily made. People carrying replicas, air-soft, air-guns and toys have been shot dead by the police.   The only good thing is it sort of works:  we don’t have a US-scale gun problem: high casualty levels and no way of stopping them.

It makes modelling firearms a risky hobby.  All too easy to be mistaken for a wrong doer, and quoting Soldier of Fortune in court won’t help at all.  Pity, because guns make interesting models, and gun-smithing techniques are widely applicable to Model Engineering.  I’m for it, but it has to be done responsibly.

One way is to make miniatures.   A 1/4 or 1/5 scale percussion revolver is unlikely to be mistaken for the real thing, and, even if it can be made to fire at all, the energy would be well below airgun limits (6ft-lbs)

Never come across any engineering drawings for guns, apart from a certain sub-machine gun.   Plenty of exploded part diagrams and patent drawings from which engineering drawings could be derived, hard work though.   Lots of intricate interacting parts inside and curved exteriors.

My first hobby bit the dust because it was too strongly associated with persons of ill-intent.  I was a schoolboy chemist.  Sadly, when I grew-up everybody assumed I was a mad scientist making bombs, poisons and drugs.  I decided to give it up.   Difficult times and I had better things to do than explain myself to a knee-jerk unsympathetic public during a paramilitary bomb campaign, and then there was Graham Young.

Dave

 

[doitagainParticipant @doitagain]

Looking at the drawing it has been drawn as blocked barrel which I will do, my Flintlock I made was a piece of tube wedge cut down the center to make a taper then silver soldered . I have a few antique guns and have a Indian Army powder and ball rifle. I think that at the time the british had the paper shell rifles and the Indian British army had the powder and ball.

Harry

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