Plans and prices.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

There are accepted error rates for drawings. Its been a long time since I was a draftsman, so I have forgotten the specifics, but it goes something like…

prototype (nothing made to drawing so far)….say up to 7% of dimensions permitted to be wrong

production prototype (prototypes made, changes incorporated etc)…say 2 %

production …. up to 0.5% reducing to 0% over time

This was from the defence industry, where there have to be industry wide standards, including for the identification and correction of errors. Clearly these standards could not and should not be applied to model engineering. They provide an indication of what happens in the real world though.

All drawings whether for a mach 3 air to air missile or a model steam loco have to start somewhere. In the case of a model steam loco, the drawings will inevitably be produced by an amateur (in the strictest sense of the word….they receive little or no money for their efforts), so it's not unreasonable that the drawing pack will have errors. However, whoever is receiving money for them has an obligation to, as a minimum and over time, provide a list of recognised errors. The question then becomes who provides the list of errors. It's not practical to expect ME (magazine) to build each and everything they supply drawings for, so they will be depending on loco (or whatever) builders to identify errors.

This means you.

This means that you will undertake to identify each and every error that you find, preferably with the solution/correction required. Then at the conclusion of your project supply all this information in a relatively standardised form, so that it can be understood by anyone, to the magazine. Realistically do we think this will happen?? Oh, look out of the window, there's a squadron of elephants flying by.

For what it's worth, my opinion is. Treat the drawings as a guide, check everything at least twice, and don't fill up this site with complaints. Oh, and I think that the drawings are a reasonable price

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 01/07/2013 01:03:36

Edited By Bill Pudney on 01/07/2013 01:04:55

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Last week
Hi son your birthday on Fri you'r 47 what whould like "within reason" email back a 3D large tele. ouch I also have 9 grandchildren aged from 7 to 21.
Back to plans, I am afraid that some contributers here are being unrealistic, wages, cost of equipment premises, overheads, you name it . Try Dianne as a source very reasonable.
Fizzy how is that lovely little twinkle getting on she must be about 6 months by now
Bob.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

John Rudd has posted this on another forum amd Steve ward [ Kwackers to many that do not know wjo designed and made freely available the indexing unit similar to the Divisionmaster ] sums it up perfectly.

[quote author=kwackers]

A classic case of people overvaluing their own time and undervaluing other peoples.

[/quote]

Steve,
That's the best statement I have seen on the subject and sums it up in a flash.

How may times have you seen a post "How much would you charge for this ?? " and a sketch or picture.
Then they all come out of the woodwork with statements like . I charge $60 to $80 per hour if I'm working from home, that will take me two hours so it will be $120 to $160.

Hang on it's a 15 minute job so why should I pay for your lack of decent machinery and incompetence.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

JohnS,

Didn't realise you are now living across the pond.

Enjoy the cheaper prices there

Geoff – Hoovering this morning

[LordedmondParticipant @lordedmond]

Ok

I'll bite I must be in the minority but I do not find the price that bad if it were only for an accurate error free drawing set IF ONLY

the price we pay out for a drawing that is full of errors that has not been corrected from the years fof LBSC beggers belief one sutch plan for a 3 1/2 loco has the longtitudanl stays 1 inch lower that the firebox roof ?????

my mony is perfect or they would not accept it but the quality of the drawing is far from it with the copy write holder not willing or unbale to correct the blatent mistakes that are still present today. I often wonder how the beginner to our hobby can ever make a model to the purchaced plans when they are so poor

so for me I do note mind paying the price asked if the drawing matches the quality of my money

Stuart

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Just to add to the understanding of the situation, if the designers/draftsmen are being paid contractor rates close to industry standard then they can expect £25/hour! I recently had some contracts drawn up and the solicitor who did them for me was stunned when he found out the going rate for engineering design and drawing – and i get a good deal better than the standard for a number of specialist skills and experience. The price of a garage mechanics labour came up in that conversation also….

Regarding sheet size, I draw/design all manner of things and have never needed to use bigger than A3, I appreciate that a large complex assembly might need many sections and detail views but that does not mean it can't be done in a manner that is logical and easily read/understood. the normal approach for me is to split the assembly into the natural subassemblies and then deal with those in the same way they will be manufactured. Grouping sheet steel parts and welded assembles as such and adding the machined parts as individual parts in a drawing pack. As for errors in dimensioning, it should not be possible if you are using a decent cad system – it is even quite hard to miss dimensions out as long as you run the checker before you issue. On the down side, it is possible to dimension in a completely farcical way and "con" the system into thinking everything is fine!

Mark

PS. I might take up drawing model plans – sounds like you bunch might value us more than the industrial clients!

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

You'll get "Mills and Boon" prices, when there is M & B sales, I imagine that the average number of all model engineering drawings would number a few hundred, some a bit more, others hardly any, and some of those drawings have been around for a great many years.

Proberbly one of the reason for some drawings is the reason of this thread, too expensive, or can't find the model I want, Or "hey" that would make a good model let's measure it up, and take some pics.

The one thing i would insist on would be that the model is built to the plan before it's published.

Ian S C

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

I’m with Ian here. .drawing up a design is an process requiring iteration. .but at least before SELLING plans they should be “proven” by building …by a third party. ..to the PLANS …This is part of what you are paying for
..plans published “free” in a mag. should be subject to a refund of the price for said plans…

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by John Stevenson on 01/07/2013 09:18:13:

John Rudd has posted this on another forum

…..And I wish I hadnt ……….

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Kwackers was spot on.

I've never seen a set of drawings for a loco, but I would imagine that they are pretty complicated, with lots of interrelationships. To provide a 100% correct set of drawings would probably cost 10 or 20 times what the reproduction/postage cost that is currently being paid.

Unless you can persuade some knarled old draftsman to spend umpteen free hours checking and incorporating the changes that have been provided by somebody else, free and for gratis.

cheers

Bill

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I would treat most drawings for model making as prototypes, and build, and if need be modify as I go, perhaps that relates to the fact that I don't use drawings for my builds, my hot air engines are not models of any prototype. Ian S C

[Author]

Posts