How on earth do they calculate electricity and gas bills…

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

I've always sent meter readings and then paid the quarterly bill.Far easier than direct debit in my opinion.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I think that we are right to be cynical.

Utility companies must have been making a mint (until interest rates hit the floor) out of the credits built up from DD.

At one time, paying £80/m EoN told me that it would go to £106. Since I was already £364 in credit, I queried it was told that the following year we would use £1600, (we were then using less than £1200). I said "No, I'll stop the DD" "You can't do that" "You just watch!" and went straight tom the bank and cancelled.

After a year or so, phoned and said, "I'll go back on DD if you behave sensibly" Since then they have.

Now they want an appointment to fit a Smart meter. (That was a nearly two months ago.Hope they're not holding their breath. So that letter was obviously a come on. Am suspicious of the security.

In any case, the change is not for our benefit, I am sure; or that of the folk employed to read meters.

Wife looks after the utility bills at our holiday home. You would scarcely believe the problems in convincing them, despite meter readings that the DD did not need to match those of the former full time owners! Kept reverting to previous owner's levels, until we really had a go and threatened to move someone more sensible.

Witness the bank who wrote to a customer to tell them that "to improve our service to you; we are closing your local branch"

Imposing a 30 mile round trip is an improvement?

You bet I'm cynical. Its only the cynical who query "improvements" and changes for no obvious good reason that keep big companies anywhere even faintly near the straight and narrow.

Utility companies are on a par with politicians, banks, double glazing salesmen, secondhand car salesmen and estate agents, in my view.

The only people really interested in looking after your interests, live in your home.

Howard

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by the artfull-codger on 23/12/2017 07:06:47:

Posted by Brian G on 22/12/2017 12:05:08:

Posted by the artfull-codger on 22/12/2017 11:46:53:

Smart meters what a load of crap, …

I beg to differ.

Without one I would either have to submit readings every month (not easy when you are in a wheelchair and the meters are in a 2' high cupboard under the stairs) or be willing to pay on the basis of wildly inaccurate estimated readings for up to two years between meter readings.

Brian

Hi Brian, sorry about your situation, in your case they're ok , don't know where you live but in North Yorkshire we get the meter man each 1/4 he leaves a card If wer'e not in & I phone the reading in, they like to take a reading once a year themselves so in my situation I don't need/want one

Graham.

I agree with AC reference Brian's difficulty, but there are always alternatives. Wheelchair users obviously need more help than most, but there are others with physical and mental impairments that may make meter readings a more difficult task. Alternatives might be to get assistance to read the meter (even if only three monthly), a camera to aid capture of images from awkward positions, contacting the supplier to

enlist extra assistance (if they are unhelpful, that is a prime reason to dump that supplier!). There are , doubtless, other options.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howi on 23/12/2017 09:47:09:

Posted by Samsaranda on 22/12/2017 14:44:36:

Denmark went through the Smart metering exercise and a study when it was completed proved no benefit to consumers so conclusion was an expensive exercise paid for by consumers. The sinister element not explained is that the communication with the Smart meter is two way, this means that the energy supplier gets up to date information on usage but also the facility to change tariffs and charging rates without notification and they can selectively disconnect consumers when they want to balance demand, you the consumer get no say, definitely smacks of Big Brother and I am not paranoid but realistic.

Dave W

What utter garbage! They cannot change your tariff without notification as most are on term contracts, neither can they selectively disconnect consumers to balance demand as that would be highly dangerous and would most certainly lead to litigation.

No! You are not realistic but paranoid. Stop being so negative, if you don't want one don't have one.

Got to disagree with Howi.

This is a two stage process:

• First, introduce the enabling technology
• Second, change the Terms and Conditions

You can already be disconnected if:

• You don't pay the bill
• the supply is affected by an emergency, or other circumstances, outside the control of the retailer or another person involved in the supply
• safety, maintenance or other technical reasons require it to be interrupted

Today, when the grid is overloaded, whole districts are disconnected. This is the crudest possible way of managing excessive demand.

In future overloads will be more likely than in the past. Like it or not the world is facing an energy crisis. Part of the answer is increased capacity, the other is to manage demand better. The good thing about smart meters is that they allow non-critical users to be disconnected selectively. It's a managed process – you could have an entire villiage disconnected apart from the one house with a dialysis machine.

Contracts aren't much protection; they can be changed. And, when you check the small print, they often disappoint. For example, if you buy a 1st Class Rail ticket with a reserved seat, there is no guarantee that the seat will be provided, or there will be a first-class carriage, or even that a train will turn up, let alone reach your destination.

Dave

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I thoroughly believe people have got the wrong end of the stick here and are treating it like a binary choice.

I believe, no matter what the set backs or challenges are at the moment, that it is in the interest of the consumer, the companies and the government to provide as much choice as possible about how to pay their bill and manage their consumption.

People can still have a fixed tarrif if they want or a smart meter, the increase in flexibility and choices benefits the whole system when the customer is able to choose. I think the energy companies would be daft to not want that for the future. (Not to mention that they've already been told enough times they're being too uncompetitive)

Michael W

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Why people put up with fixed and escalating direct debits that exist only to improve the cash flow of energy companies escapes me.

Each month we get an email requesting we submit a meter reading, it takes five minutes max to read and input the readings, then a few days later a pdf arrives with the bill, the money is taken two weeks later. Even better the supplier is one of the cheapest suppliers in the market (within 3% of the cheapest, with lower risk of collapse than the very cheapest)

As for remote switching to manage demand, there is far more scope for this in a commercial and industrial environment, a process that has been happening for half a century for major consumers like steelworks, and has existed for all those in the >100KVA market for 25 years. Delaying operation aircon or heating in a commercial environment to save thousands or tens of thousands in peak demand charges for a handful of days a year makes sense for an office block or a department store.

Disconnects of selected appliances 'over the internet' or with 'smart meter switching' to manage peak demand will not happen for UK domestic consumers. Unlike the Americans or Australians or Canadians we don't rely on aircon or resistive heating. Just do the maths and see what deferring the load of something like a fridge freezer that uses less than 1kWh per day has on the demand curve. Deferral of larger appliances such as an  oven would not be acceptable to many.

Peak pricing to try and encourage load deferral may happen in the UK but there is IMHO far more probability of zero or negative pricing with solar peaks.

Edited By Martin 100 on 23/12/2017 12:01:30

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi Martin 100

I think you are dreaming to think of zero or negative pricing from supplier's under any conditions especially with the already agreed price of supply from nuclear plants.

Emgee

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Negative pricing has already happened here several times, all it needs is a sunny day with a few gusts of wind.

It's quite common in Germany too

https://www.ft.com/content/5164675e-1e7e-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/germany-grids-paying-electricity-customers-renewable-energy-power-surplus-wind-solar-generation-a8022576.html

Hinkley Point C is priced at £92.50/MWh for delivery in 2025 (2012 cost basis) (currently £97.14)

Current year delivery offshore wind like Dudgeon Phase 3 is as high as £161.71/MWh

Future nuclear (Wylfa/Oldbury/Moorside) will be much nearer £60/MWh which is significantly closer to what is being delivered with new builds worldwide (EdF excepted)

There are also lots of ways HPC would have been delivered at significantly lower cost.

See Page 68 of the National Audit Office Report

Other than hydro for which the UK has very limited potential there is no other way to secure low carbon dispatchable generation.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Martin 100 on 23/12/2017 12:51:09:

Negative pricing has already happened here several times, all it needs is a sunny day with a few gusts of wind.

None of that negative pricing seems to reach the domestic consumers so how and when will they benefit ?

Emgee

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Thank you Dave(aka SOD) for explaining how disconnection works now and for the future, you did it better than I could. As you explained balancing supply to demand happens very crudely at the moment with whole areas disconnected when the need arises, in future the energy companies will selectively disconnect consumers using the functions of the smart meter and the system will have the degree of precision of enabling continuos supply to vulnerable consumers I.e. those with dialysis units etc.

Dave W

[VicParticipant @vic]

Smart meters help customers “manage their consumption”, really? So you think you’ll put they kettle on and make a nice cuppa then glance the smart meter and decide nope, I’ve used enough electricity today I’ll go without the tea. Or you’re happily watching a film on TV then halfway through decide, that’s enough, I’ll turn it off now. Really, is that how folks with smart meters live? I just turn stuff off when I’m not using it.

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Samsaranda on 23/12/2017 14:15:40:

As you explained balancing supply to demand happens very crudely at the moment with whole areas disconnected when the need arises,

Supply exactly matches demand + system losses. Any deviation and the frequency rises or falls, fall towards the proscribed limits and there will be an increase in generation (almost all generation is operated with some headroom) fall further and additional fast acting generation (hydro/open cycle gas turbines/interconnectors) will increase output, fall further and there will be a reduction of voltage (UK end user supply is technically 230v +10% -6% with a nominal 240v) the wide area voltage reductions being in one or two stages, then at a point at which generator/grid stability approaches there will be load shedding, in the first instance to large industrial customers with a prearranged disconnection agreement, then in an extreme situations wider areas.

Whole area disconnections happen so rarely it involves thousands of man hours on investigations

BBC – Power returns following blackouts

OFGEM – System Events of 27th May 2008

There is a formal report on this incident, I'm not sure if it was ever placed in the public domain.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Martin 100 on 23/12/2017 15:57:36:

Posted by Samsaranda on 23/12/2017 14:15:40:

As you explained balancing supply to demand happens very crudely at the moment with whole areas disconnected when the need arises,

Supply exactly matches demand + system losses. Any deviation and the frequency rises or falls, fall towards the proscribed limits and there will be an increase in generation (almost all generation is operated with some headroom) fall further and additional fast acting generation (hydro/open cycle gas turbines/interconnectors) will increase output, fall further and there will be a reduction of voltage (UK end user supply is technically 230v +10% -6% with a nominal 240v) the wide area voltage reductions being in one or two stages, then at a point at which generator/grid stability approaches there will be load shedding, in the first instance to large industrial customers with a prearranged disconnection agreement, then in an extreme situations wider areas.

Whole area disconnections happen so rarely it involves thousands of man hours on investigations

…

That's a good summary of why UK supply has been so reliable in the past. But it's no guarantee that the same can be maintained in the future. The world changes. This graph from 2013 illustrates why there's cause for concern:

The graph shows the UK capacity margin narrowing mainly because of scheduled plant closures, much of it already time extended. It needs to be replaced and it's not obvious what the answer is. The future of energy supply is more complex than it was in the past for political, economic and technical reasons.

It means we are in a period of difficult investment decisions for Coal, Gas and Nuclear plant. Dirty coal and nuclear are both unpopular: who isn't a NIMBY at heart? None of them are cheap or quick to build. In consequence there is a distinct risk of a shortfall.

At the same time, the world is exploiting sustainable energy sources far more. They are cheap, clean and unreliable. Unfortunately that unreliability makes them unsuitable as a way of satisfying unexpected peaks in demand.

Bottom line, a very cold windless winter between now and, say, 2025 could easily take UK demand for electricity beyond normal control measures.

And after 2025 there is still much uncertainty ahead. Coal could be dirt cheap because no one wants it, or – more likely – it will be much more expensive because there's a shortage. Who knows?

I think Smart Meters are being introduced as part of an overall energy strategy aimed at de-risking an uncertain future. We are being encouraged to save energy whilst allowing more sophisticated demand management in the event that the system can't cope. My plan is that you should all have one, while I don't! That way I can play with my lathe while everyone else enjoys a candle-lit supper.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 23/12/2017 17:02:26

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Candle lit suppers were only necessary with a new young bride.

A Wife remarked "When We were first married You used to give Me the biggest portion of Your food.

Now You eat it all and don't share. Why are You so selfish now?

You have learned to cook now!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 23/12/2017 19:25:26:

Candle lit suppers were only necessary with a new young bride.

…

Wife: Whatever happened to that beautiful thing we shared together when first married?

Husband: You spent it.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Direct debits, if you are not satisfied with the way your supplier handles DD's, change supplier.

My supplier agrees a direct debit from the start of the contract based on the size of the property and average use in said property. They monitor usage over a period of months and IF NEEDED raise or lower the DD, but only if you agree. All this is shown on a graph so you can see why the change. You also have the option of paying more if you want to.

The last change to my DD went from £74 to £79, but I set it at £80.

If I am in credit I get paid interest of 3%.

If your supplier is not as accommodating, then change.

It is time to take control!

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Do you mean that they really calculate these bills ? I thought they just took a number out of the air and doubled it.

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by larry Phelan on 25/12/2017 17:09:07:

Do you mean that they really calculate these bills ? I thought they just took a number out of the air and doubled it.

When I moved into my new propert, I contacted the water supply authority to tell them I moved in as the new customer. I then received a bill for the quarterly period which came to £ 31-ish….I asked to set up a dd, he suggested to set the monthly charge at £30…. I aked why so high, his response was ' well thats an average figure for a house of that size' I explained that we were not Mr and Mrs average with kids…..eventually we settled on £15 a month….

Bottom line, if they start hiking up the dd without justification, I'll go back to paying on a quarterly basis….their loss.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

Most suppliers give a discount if you use DD and paperless bills. So far I have been changing almost every year to get the best price but that option must run out eventually.

I have solar panels on the roof which help in reducing costs . The introduction of battery packs should be a real advance but will not apply to existing systems which qualify for the feed in tariff. I would think that for new installations without the feed -in incentive more panels could be fitted and with a reasonable battery pack, the average home would be self sufficient although mains would still be required as a backup.

I have been looking at fitting a stand alone solar panel system of about 400W for the shed. Looking at what is available, using car batteries,this should give enough power, about 1500W to run most if the machines and perhaps a small greenhouse heater to keep the shed dry. At an investment cost of about £500 it could well pay for itself but at this time of the year it is mostly cloudy,misty weather the panel output is very low so I think that idea goes on the back burner until the sun comes out.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Ray Lyons on 25/12/2017 21:31:37:

Most suppliers give a discount if you use DD and paperless bills.

We also got an additional discount for sending them meter readings by email.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Ray,

Do not even try to use car batteries. It is doomed to failure – automotive batteries are not designed for deep discharge and would fail within a few months unless depth of discharge were limited to about 10% and they were returned to full charge soon after.. Traction batteries are made for this purpose.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

Thanks for the tip. I assume that the description Traction applies to golf cart or mobility scooter batteries. I'll bear that in mind if I ever get around to installing.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Traction applies to golf cart or mobility scooter batteries.

No. You need a quality of ‘fork truck’ batteries at least. Look up about number of deep discharges per battery type.

[colin wilkinsonParticipant @colinwilkinson75381]

Leisure batteries used for motorhome/caravan/canal boat use are designed for low discharge over long period and are not that expensive. Maintenance free as well so no topping up or risk of spillage. Colin

[the artfull-codgerParticipant @theartfull-codger]

Posted by Vic on 23/12/2017 14:38:57:

Smart meters help customers “manage their consumption”, really? So you think you’ll put they kettle on and make a nice cuppa then glance the smart meter and decide nope, I’ve used enough electricity today I’ll go without the tea. Or you’re happily watching a film on TV then halfway through decide, that’s enough, I’ll turn it off now. Really, is that how folks with smart meters live? I just turn stuff off when I’m not using it.

Just gotta love your post Vic,my sentiments entirely, Ive been ''carefull/frugal"all my life, I was brought up that way!!

[Author]

Posts