steam engine valve

steam engine valve

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  • #197175
    phil burley
    Participant
      @philburley12227

      Hello I am a beginner having just finished my first engine , a Tina mill engine . My maching is not the best in the world , The engine will run but needs about 60 PSI of air pressure . The exhaust is constantly leaking air , am I right in thinking that the valve is not sealing properly ? Should I lap it onto the port face ?

      regards Phil

      #7707
      phil burley
      Participant
        @philburley12227

        leaking?

        #197176
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb

          Rubbing the port face on some wet & dry that is laid on a flat surface will help and then the same with teh valve face followed by finally lapping the two together.

          Also make sure that the valve is free to move on the nut and not binding on teh valve rod. If the thread is not cut nice and square the valve can stick on the nut and not lay flat on the port face which defeats the lapping process.

          #197181
          Ajohnw
          Participant
            @ajohnw51620

            It woud be best to put some 3 in 1 or other light oil on the wet and dry to stop it clogging and to get a cleaner finish. Soapy water can help too if nothing else is available.

            A local glass merchant might be able to sell you a square of 1/2 in plate glass but unfortunately many only stock laminated now. If that is put one something reasonably flat it can make a good flat surface. 16mm mdf is often very flat, also pieces of kitchen surface. Those are easily checked with a rule.

            Rather than wet and dry you might like to try some papers 3M make. They are are actually a plastic film for lapping and finishing and go down to sub micron levels. A number of companies offer sample packs but i suspect the best value ones are from cousinsuk.com. There's are full sized sheets. They are a watch and clock bits type company also useful for acids if you are local to them. The papers are mostly being used by woodworkers to get tools amazingly sharp at the moment but should have uses for all sorts of finishing.

            John

            Edited By John W1 on 18/07/2015 17:10:54

            #197193
            phil burley
            Participant
              @philburley12227

              thanks , that was quick !! I will dismantle it next week and have a go at lapping it , it could be a bit tight in the slot for the nut as well ., regards Phil

              #197197
              J Hancock
              Participant
                @jhancock95746

                60psi sounds a bit excessive !

                Could be that air is getting past the piston and out the exhaust that way too.

                #197205
                Bruce Edney
                Participant
                  @bruceedney59949
                  Posted by J Hancock on 18/07/2015 18:32:32:

                  60psi sounds a bit excessive !

                  Could be that air is getting past the piston and out the exhaust that way too.

                  Or, like in the case of my horizontal Mill engine (S.Hart design) I did not machine deep enough cylinder ports and the end covers nearly blocked them completely. Became a totally different engine once it could breath properly.

                  Bruce

                  #197213
                  Neil Wyatt
                  Moderator
                    @neilwyatt

                    It sounds like it could be a stuck valve as Jason suggests.

                    Also, does the engine turn over freely if you spin the flywheel. An engine that will run on air and not be expected to do a 'job of work' will benefit from being fairly free-running, although things will improve with an hour or two of use.

                    Neil

                    #197222
                    Gas_mantle.
                    Participant
                      @gas_mantle
                      Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/07/2015 23:16:10:

                      It sounds like it could be a stuck valve as Jason suggests.

                      Also, does the engine turn over freely if you spin the flywheel. An engine that will run on air and not be expected to do a 'job of work' will benefit from being fairly free-running, although things will improve with an hour or two of use.

                      Neil

                      Does that mean that engines need to built/set up slightly differently to optimise their performance depending on the power source being used ?

                      Edited By Peter Nichols on 19/07/2015 07:43:02

                      #197228
                      roy entwistle
                      Participant
                        @royentwistle24699

                        Peter On larger steam engines the valve closes before the piston reaches top dead centre and the steam expands still driving the piston This is usually refered tto as ' cut off ' Air does not expand Also on large engines witha condenser a vaccuum is formed on the other side of the piston which sucks the piston So to answer your question the answer is yes but in small sizes I don't think it's going to matter that much

                        Roy

                        #197229
                        Gas_mantle.
                        Participant
                          @gas_mantle

                          Thanks Roy,

                          I'm about to start making a small engine (something about the size of a Stuart S50 but much simplified) so I'm interested in this subject.

                          I don't have a mill (yet) so wondering how accurately I can get flat faces to form tight seals with just a lathe and hand tools.

                          Peter.

                          #197233
                          roy entwistle
                          Participant
                            @royentwistle24699

                            When I was an apprentice one had to produce three flat surfaces starting with files engineers blue and a surface plate then by lapping this was done on three pieces so that one didn't get a concave on one mating with a convex on the other Apprentices where taught to do this before being let anywhere near the machine shop A lot of ' fitting ' was done by hand after work had been machined

                            Ha the good old days ! !

                            Roy ( Nostalga isn't what it used to be )

                            #197235
                            Neil Wyatt
                            Moderator
                              @neilwyatt

                              As Roy says, technically yes, in practice it doesn't matter as air-powered engines won't usually be driving much.

                              I don't have a mill (yet) so wondering how accurately I can get flat faces to form tight seals with just a lathe and hand tools.

                              Faced on the lathe should be fine.

                              Neil

                              #197238
                              Gas_mantle.
                              Participant
                                @gas_mantle

                                Thanks Neil,

                                Yea I was planning on facing in the lathe, it's far from ideal but the last little job I did that way turned out better than I expected.

                                I'm reading as much as I can online about steam engine design but don't seem to find out a great deal about how to lap, get decent seals, gland packing etc in model engines

                                Peter.

                                #197242
                                Anonymous
                                  Posted by roy entwistle on 19/07/2015 09:17:21:

                                  ……….Air does not expand………

                                  That's odd; the compressed air I use is happy to expand given half a chance. Of course air at a given pressure doesn't have the benefit of the enthalpy in steam at the same pressure, but the air will still expand if allowed.

                                  Andrew

                                  #197258
                                  Ian S C
                                  Participant
                                    @iansc

                                    If you can't get a bit of plate glass, go to a second hand shop, and get an old, heavy plate glass mirror thick as you can get, you might have one around the house that has damage to the mirror backing.

                                    Ian S C

                                    #197278
                                    phil burley
                                    Participant
                                      @philburley12227

                                      thanks for the comments , I will let you know how it goes . could be that the piston needs more packing, I used graphite twine and had to remove some as I couldn't get the piston in , gone a bit slack now !!

                                      phil

                                      #197306
                                      stan pearson 1
                                      Participant
                                        @stanpearson1

                                        Phil

                                        Make a tapered sleeve that the small end is a nice sliding fit on the piston, soak the yarn in warm oil fit in grove enter the piston down the taper and lightly hammer into the cylinder bore using a piece of hard wood.

                                        Stan

                                        #197456
                                        phil burley
                                        Participant
                                          @philburley12227

                                          these 3 M sheets are fine !!!!! which is the abrasive side ? shiny side or dull side ?

                                          Phil

                                          #197695
                                          phil burley
                                          Participant
                                            @philburley12227

                                            Thanks for advice , repacked piston , eased valve a bit , re faced ports and engine runs much better on about 25 lbs , but still getting continuous exhaust . That cant be right can it ? maybe my ports arnt right , but valve only uncovers one at a time and doesn't look as if it uncovers exhaust port at the same time

                                            Phil

                                            #197696
                                            Nick_G
                                            Participant
                                              @nick_g
                                              Posted by phil burley on 23/07/2015 15:33:04:

                                              but valve only uncovers one at a time and doesn't look as if it uncovers exhaust port at the same time

                                              Phil

                                              .

                                              Is the recess in the slide of the valve the correct size and orientation. ?

                                              Nick

                                              #197714
                                              phil burley
                                              Participant
                                                @philburley12227

                                                hello Nick I am wondering that , it is about the same as the drawing , but the ports might not be exactly in the right places . I will try making another with narrower recess

                                                Phil

                                                #197720
                                                MichaelR
                                                Participant
                                                  @michaelr

                                                  You should size your valve to suit the ports, and then check that the valve gear is giving the right openings.

                                                  This link may help you Here.

                                                  Mike.

                                                  #197825
                                                  phil burley
                                                  Participant
                                                    @philburley12227

                                                    I can report that the engine is running fine now it run in a bit . Valve must not have been seating on the face properly . Thanks every one for advice , now for painting !! For next job , I have a part built ST beam engine so no doubt I will be back on here as problems crop up !

                                                    Regards Phil

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