Complete beginner checking in and asking the usual question!

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Complete beginner checking in and asking the usual question!

This topic has 28 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 21 May 2013 at 12:17 by Ian S C.

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19 May 2013 at 18:36 #120208
Frank
Participant
@frank
Hi Guys, just joined the forum as I'm looking to get as much information (and help) I can. I have no hands-on engineering experience ( I'm an accountant by trade), though I've worked in industry – particularly Metal-bashing companies – all my working life. I've always been interested in Model Engineering and have looked in awe at the detailed steam models made by others. I'm now looking at preparing for retirement and have decided to set up a small workshop and have a go for myself. I've started drawing up a budget and could do with advice which lathe to go for. Funds have been limited by She, so I'm looking to spend under £1,000. As I said, I'm interested in small model steam and besides, do not have a lot of space. I know its the usual noobie question – "which lathe is best" but I would appreciate the thoughts of the more experienced. Thanks
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19 May 2013 at 18:36 #6717
Frank
Participant
@frank
20 May 2013 at 09:08 #120230
Nobby
Participant
@nobby
Hi Frank
Welome to this forum. I think a lathe & maybe a drill press would be a good start . What lathe ? you will see in due course many guys have different ideas For my pennyworth I would go for a used
Myford lathe
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 20/05/2013 09:09:33
20 May 2013 at 09:26 #120233
Eric Cox
Participant
@ericcox50497
As Nobby says, everyone has their own preference. For less than £1000 I would go for a Chester Conquest Super. Don't forget an independent four jaw chuck, revolving center and quick change tool post.
20 May 2013 at 09:39 #120234
OuBallie
Participant
@ouballie
Welcome to the fold Frank.

I second what Nobby said with regards a second hand lathe.

My BH600G was second hand, sight unseen, but from a Model Engineer, and I have absolutely no regret, but do inspect it first.

Do, however, join your local Society and ask around for lathes and other tools.

The type of steam engine/s you intend building will govern the size of lathe, BUT, it will ALWAYS end up too small at some point, hence all the wonderful methods devised to swing that just too large a flywheel or disc etc.

I think the maxim of Model Engineering has to be "It's never big enough!"

Can't believe that my first lathe was an Emco Unimat on which I wanted to build a Tich. Reality soon showed the wisdom of that idea, with a V10P purchased PDQ.

One more thing, buy tools as and when needed. Take this from someone who has tools that will never be used!

Geoff – About to use the QC for the first time.
20 May 2013 at 09:59 #120236
Robbo
Participant
@robbo
Frank,

Might help to know where you are located. Don't forget the forum covers the World.

Phil
20 May 2013 at 10:08 #120237
Terry Lane
Participant
@terrylane
Well the £1,000 mentioned in his message gives a fairly substantial clue – not too many countries use the pound these days.
20 May 2013 at 10:25 #120238
Harold Hall 1
Participant
@haroldhall1
Welcome Frank

I am not going to recommend a lathe, will leave that to those who have more experience in what is available these days.

However, you do not mention a milling machine but are obviously considering making a small steam engine .

You may therefore find the following web site interesting as it shows in considerable detail the processes for making a small steam engine using just a very small lathe and small drilling machine.

**LINK**

Harold
20 May 2013 at 10:27 #120239
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
Posted by Nobby on 20/05/2013 09:08:50:

Hi Frank
Welome to this forum. I think a lathe & maybe a drill press would be a good start . What lathe ? you will see in due course many guys have different ideas For my pennyworth I would go for a used
Myford lathe
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 20/05/2013 09:09:33

It might have to be a worn out tatty Myford as you need to keep some of your £1000 for buying other tools and tooling.

Contrary to what some people believe its possible to build steam powered models without the word Myford being involved, (I'm not having a go at you Nobby).

You need to decide how big your model is going to be before choosing a lathe, but basically the lathe needs to be the biggest you can afford after you have a bench, vice, hand tools, drilling machine, drill, the list goes on and on…

Ian P
20 May 2013 at 10:46 #120242
Frank
Participant
@frank
Thank you for the welcome and replies.

I have never worked on a metal lathe, and I guess like every beginner I don't want to jump in and buy the 'wrong' lathe. The mini lathe market – like every other tool market – seems to be dominated by the Chinese and my experience has been that they are not all cheap tat, but its just finding recommendations for which particular factory in Shangdong to look out for!

I have read a few articles about buying older second-hand lathes, but when you are as raw as I am, then it could be a costly road to go down, and instead of ending up with a nice usable machine I end up with a money-pit!

I have fixed the profile bit about my location.

Thanks everyone.
20 May 2013 at 10:59 #120243
Frank
Participant
@frank
Posted by Harold Hall 1 on 20/05/2013 10:25:57:

Welcome Frank

I am not going to recommend a lathe, will leave that to those who have more experience in what is available these days.

However, you do not mention a milling machine but are obviously considering making a small steam engine .

You may therefore find the following web site interesting as it shows in considerable detail the processes for making a small steam engine using just a very small lathe and small drilling machine.

**LINK**

Harold

Harold,

Thanks for the link to your site – just the sort of information I need. Do you have it as a download so I can print it out and read at leisure (rather than here at work!)
20 May 2013 at 11:03 #120244
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
I think what was needed is a better idea of location, ie near "x", that way one of us might be better placed to offer help with your questions.
20 May 2013 at 11:19 #120249
Harold Hall 1
Participant
@haroldhall1
I said I was not going to comment on the lathe to choose but I agree with Ian about going for the largest you can afford. This, because, if you do expect to work with just a lathe for some time milling on the lathe is very limited with a smaller lathe.

The vertical slides on the mini lathes are very small and I would consider very limited in what you can achieve with them. Also, a Tee Slotted cross slide will be very useful.

If I may be allowed to mention my web site again there are some pages devoted to using a lathe with vertical slide for milling which will give you an idea. The index for these is at- **LINK** right hand side of page under the heading "Lathe only Projects"

Of course, as the link in my first post shows much can be achieved with a small lathe providing you stay with the very small steam engines as projects.

Harold
20 May 2013 at 11:56 #120254
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
READ ALL the archives of this forum.
Subscribe to ME then you can also read all the back issues online for free.

Join your local club if possible before you buy or build anything. You don NOT have to have made anything let alone completed a full pacific loco before joining. Don't be put off if the first person you talk to is a bit gruff as many shed bound modellers are a bit poor on the communication skills. You will save a lot of money from cub tool sales and contacts etc.

One of my first thoughts was to recommend Harold's site. Wouldn't hurt to send new members the link in their welcome post.

Make a firm resolution not to be tempted ot buy the first 'bargain' you see and then risk scanning ebay to get an idea of prices. Bear in mind the bigest problem is often shifting that big lathe. The BH600 mentioned needs a 2 ton engine crane to lift it onto the stand. (it only weighs half a ton but you need the stretch of a bigger crane).

Meanwhile, since the reading above will take you months, make sure the shed you probably have from your woodworking is 110% waterproof, insulated, and draughtproof.
20 May 2013 at 12:09 #120258
Harold Hall 1
Participant
@haroldhall1
Sorry Frank but I do not have a facility for downloading groups of website pages. The item was originally published In the Model Engineer magazine from number 4384 through to 4390 (7 issues)

They can be had as back issues from the likes of TEE but probably would only warrant the cost if you decided to make the engine as per the methods in the article.

Harold
20 May 2013 at 12:18 #120260
Anonymous
Hi Frank,

First, welcome to the forum, a repository of opinions from extremity to extremity, and everything between.

I'm not going to recommend any specific lathes. If we assume that the £1000 includes accessories, then I suspect you're looking at £5-600 for the lathe itself. You'll be surprised just how many accessories are required; it's never ending!

The main choice is new or secondhand. New will mean far east; advantages being easy to buy and any problems ideally being fixed by the supplier. Buying secondhand will probably get you a bigger lathe, possibly with more accessories. If buying secondhand I'd avoid Myford, for the simple reason that they're very popular, and therefore command a price premium. I wouldn't worry about buying the 'wrong' lathe. I wouldn't be unduly concerned about wear either, you can work round it. Until you've bought a lathe, and played with it, you won't know what you really want. You can always sell on and buy a different lathe. If you buy secondhand you'll probably get your money back.

My advice would be to buy something cheap, play with it, and then decide what you really want. Engineering is all about experience, and that inevitably includes making mistakes as part of the learning process.

I'd also make a business case to the purse holder that cutting tools are consumables, and therefore not included in the intial capital outlay. There are two rules for buying cutting tools:

1. Never buy low quality cutting tools, they're false economy

2. See rule 1

Regards,

Andrew
20 May 2013 at 13:06 #120264
Chris Parsons
Participant
@chrisparsons64193
Hello Frank – I, like you am a beginner, I got my first lathe in December last year, and I bought a bench drill a month or two prior to that.

I also aim to make model steam engines, and have just completed my first one – I looked long and hard at the used market, but ended up buying a chinese lathe, a Sieg SC4

My logic was that I didn't have the skill to judge whether the second hand machine was good or bad for the price, and wanted something a bit more modern? This is certainly not to decry Myford, only my preference, The machine I have offered some facilties that I thought were useful that I could not see on other machines

I also did a two day course in Axminster Tool Centre (I live in Exeter in Devon) and while this cost a couple of hundred pounds meant that any expensive mistakes were on their machines not mine, and they use the machine I intended to buy, giving me a chance to try it out in advance.

I am very happy with my decision, but would reiterate what others have said – I do use the drill a lot and this is another 200-300 pounds, and have spent at least that again in tooling etc (four jaw chuck, steadies, indexable cutting tools, grinder to sharpen HSS cutting tools…) the list could go on and on but I have enough to keep me going for some time – but can see that I will buy a milling machine eventually, and the one I am looking at is 1200 pounds, approximately what I paid for the lathe.

Lot of money but is has opened my eyes into a new world (I am a software developer who is also interested in electronics and RC model aeroplanes)

If you want a chat send me a private message and I'll give you my phone number

I am a way off retirement unfortunately, and the weekends are never long enough!

Best wishes

Chris

Edited By Chris Parsons on 20/05/2013 13:29:49
20 May 2013 at 13:18 #120267
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Observing from afar, I would suggest that if you are going for a secondhand lathe, I would suggest a Boxford, or similar sized industrial machine, for the same or better condition a Myford may cost double. Find someone who knows lathes, join a Model Engineering Club, and see if you can find a night class at a school. Reading books will tell you what to do, but hands on is the only way to learn how to use the machine. Ian S C
20 May 2013 at 14:09 #120272
Bob Perkins
Participant
@bobperkins67044
Hi Frank

I bought my Chinese lathe a couple of years ago. It's a SIEG SC4 and from the same supplier as Chris, Axminster. I found it useful to see them in the flesh, and came away with a bigger one that I thought I wanted. I don't regret that choice either. £1k isn't a large budget and you may be tempted to go for a second hand machine. That is fine, and your choice, and one that I considered and discounted because I didn't feel i had the expertise to pick out a good or bad machine, or contacts to deal with any nasty surprises that it may have presented. They all look great on EBAY, with one owner and been rarley used. Perhaps contact a local club for some advice and perhaps somebody may be able to come and look at them with you. Speaking from the experience of setting up my workshop over the last couple of years, think of a budget, double it and then add a bit more.

Welcome to the hobby and forum.

Bob..
20 May 2013 at 19:23 #120285
Andrew Evans
Participant
@andrewevans67134
Welcome to the forum. I disagree about choosing a Myford to be honest, I think you would struggle to get an unworn one for under £1000. Nice machines but over-priced and seem prone to bed wear.

If you have the space go for a larger machine, normally better value for money. I have a Denford Viceroy, not as well known but very strongly built and good value compared to a Myford. New machines have the advantage that they get delivered to your house and are great value.

Don't discount a milling machine, I use mine more than my lathe and use it as a a drilling machine too (although a lathe is essential for many tasks). My experience is milling with a vertical slide is a PITA. You might be better trying to squeeze both in to your budget which should be possible with 2 smaller new machines from Chester or Warco.
20 May 2013 at 20:04 #120290
magpie
Participant
@magpie
Hi Frank, from where you live you will not be too far from Chester UK's midlands showroom, so why not pop round there and have a good look at what is on offer ( i believe they have a sale on at the moment). I have no connection to them just a satisfied customer as i have a DB10VS lathe, and a Champion 20 V mill. I agree with Andrew that i use the mill as much as the lathe. Cheers Derek.
20 May 2013 at 20:26 #120295
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Hi Frank,

I suggest you look at Arc Euro Trade and Warco as well, as all the imported machines have variations in detail.

For a pillar drill, it's probably worth looking at Machine Mart.

Neil.
20 May 2013 at 20:43 #120297
GaryM
Participant
@garym
Hi Frank,

Welcome to the forum, the folk on here are very helpful even if they argue with each other occasionally.

I'd say you already possess the most useful skill you will need – accounting. You'll need to find creative ways of extracting more money from somewhere without it being noticed. There will be no end of things to buy.

I bought my lathe 18 months ago and have really enjoyed learning to use it. It's a steep learning curve though. I went with new for the same reason as Chris but as Ian says the best thing is to buy something and start using it. Only then will you know what you want to make and what tools you will need to make it.

I found the following sites useful

**LINK**

**LINK**

Gary
20 May 2013 at 20:48 #120298
Frank
Participant
@frank
Its interesting to see that there are about five or six imported lathes that look identical to each other (apart from the stickers), but vary quite widely in price. Do they really come out of the same factory I wonder? Looked on the Bay for used lathes and they seem within my price bracket, however finding a 'good 'un' would probably be beyond me. Also they look quite large?
20 May 2013 at 21:30 #120302
Bob Perkins
Participant
@bobperkins67044
They probably do come out of the same factory, with perhaps some different tweaks for some manufacturers. You soon find this with the tooling as well. Especially if like me if setting up cost is a factor. I have found that quality of these is similar and therefore make a selection based upon the supplier and service they provide. I bought my Chinese lathe from Axminster and my Chinese mill from Arc and would recommend the service they both provide. There has been a recommend a supplier thread on the forum, have a look at that. It is a comfort to know that you have a warranty. I had a problem with my lathe which was sorted out within days by Axminster. I'm not sure what I would have done if it was an EBAY or other type purchase. You have probably unknowingly started your first project, a can of worms opener. You will get a range of opinions and advice, as you've probably discovered, but it will be honest and given with all best intention.

Bob..
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