Unusual Rule instrument?

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Unusual Rule instrument?

This topic has 18 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 7 December 2017 at 14:40 by Martin King 2.

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24 November 2017 at 09:23 #328814
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Hi All,

We have just got this otherwise un-remarkablke 24" 4 fold boxwood & brass rule by TROUGHTON & SIMMS.

It came at boot sale with some other tools.

We were surpirised to find these two unusual scale when we cleaned the grime off it

GUNS Dia & SHOT Dia

The scales do not seem to make any kind of sense and there is no reference in Jane Rees Rule 'bible'

Any thoughts anyone please?

Cheers,

Martin
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24 November 2017 at 09:23 #13089
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
24 November 2017 at 09:40 #328821
Martin Kyte
Participant
@martinkyte99762
At a guess, stick the object you wish to find the diameter of between 2 of the arms, Close on the object and read the scale to obtain the measurement.

regards Martin
24 November 2017 at 11:42 #328837
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
I think the rule dates back to the time before cannon bores and cannon balls were made accurately. This was quite late into the mid 19th century.

Given that both bore and ball vary it would pay to match shot to the diameter of each gun on a ship or in a battery. Shot should be rather smaller than the bore of the gun, but loose balls won't shoot straight.

I think the 'Gun Diameter' scale is used to measure the gun bore. The 'Shot Diameter' scale uses the same graduations, but they are closer together. So you can sit down with a pile of shot and use the Shot scale to sort them to suit a particular gun: too big; too small; and close enough.

Might be collectable!

Dave

Late thought: bore diameter may be graduated in pounds rather than inches. Could test the idea by calculating the diameter of a 1lb cast-iron sphere to see if it matches your scale.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:45:19
24 November 2017 at 13:26 #328855
Jon Gibbs
Participant
@jongibbs59756
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:42:00:

Late thought: bore diameter may be graduated in pounds rather than inches. Could test the idea by calculating the diameter of a 1lb cast-iron sphere to see if it matches your scale.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:45:19

Seems to be borne out from the scale.

Since weight will follow volume, and given that the cube root of 2 ~= 1.26, the ratio looks about right for the lines 1/2 -> 1 & 1 -> 2 & 11/2 -> 3.

Edit: Also from 1 -> 1 1/2 and 2 -> 3 will be ~1.145 which looks pretty close to me too by eye.

Jon

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 24/11/2017 13:29:00
24 November 2017 at 14:40 #328879
Mick B1
Participant
@mickb1
If each guns diameter is a little greater than the matching shot diameter, that would suggest the appropriate ‘windage’ allowance between bore and shot to provide for easy reloading in battle.
Troughton & Simms were active 1826 to 1922. Roundshot were becoming obsolescent from the 1860s on, so the rule will probably date before this.
24 November 2017 at 15:37 #328894
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Thanks guys, that helps a lot.seems to make sense! Strange that there seems to be no info in the literature about these.

I have a local collector coming to look at it tomorrow who may shed more light. Will keep you posted.

Cheers, Martin
I
29 November 2017 at 15:12 #329755
Martin Kyte
Participant
@martinkyte99762
Did you find out?

Martin
29 November 2017 at 18:01 #329773
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
No, the chap was a ‘no show’, perhaps later this week. It is proving difficult to get any defining answer on this item.

I will probably just fly it on EBay at the weekend and see what happens.

Cheers, Martin
29 November 2017 at 18:06 #329775
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
You could always contact the Royal Armouries either in London or Leeds. I'm sure they will be able to help.

Brian
29 November 2017 at 20:28 #329798
peak4
Participant
@peak4
Martin, I've contacted a friend about this, but waiting to hear back; he's not on this forum, but I suspect will be familiar with the item.

Would you mind hanging fire on ebay until I hear from him.

Thanks

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 29/11/2017 20:28:58
29 November 2017 at 23:10 #329834
peak4
Participant
@peak4
Martin, please check your PMs. My friends contact email address is in there.

Bill
30 November 2017 at 17:52 #329929
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Hi Bill, Your friend very kindly got back to me with this:

'The gun and shot measuring tools I have come across were steel (or iron), or sometimes brass, so a boxwood one is a bit of a puzzle. It would be interesting to check the Guns and Shot diameters to find out what units they are expressed in. Most cannon were classified as the weight of the shot they fired – 3 pounder etc. – and related to an iron ball. Muzzle loading Smooth-Bored Gun bores were generally noticeably slight larger than the shot they fired – the difference known as 'windage' – to allow for ease of loading.'

Regards, Martin
30 November 2017 at 18:19 #329936
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Now listed, Item number: 142608071588, lets see what happens?

Cheers, Martin
6 December 2017 at 15:39 #330762
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Hi All,

Must be my week for unusual boxwood rules, a pal just dropped round with some tools for me and this was among them:

Seems to be a normal gauging rule but have never seen scales for BOUGE BOTTLES or CYLINDER BOTTLES

Again no info in Jane Ree's rule bible!

Cheers, Martin
7 December 2017 at 12:12 #330867
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Martin, your rule maybe something to do with Brewing.

Ian S C
7 December 2017 at 13:05 #330872
Sam Longley 1
Participant
@samlongley1
Posted by Ian S C on 07/12/2017 12:12:12:

Martin, your rule maybe something to do with Brewing.

Ian S C

What . Are you saying that the bloke that engraved it was p.ss.d ???

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 07/12/2017 13:05:37
7 December 2017 at 13:11 #330873
Brian G
Participant
@briang
Martin

As Ian said, it is definitely connected with brewing. Scroll down on this page for "gauging rules" **LINK**. The two scales are for vessels that either bulge (bouge bottles) or have parallel sides (cylinder bottles).

Brian
7 December 2017 at 14:40 #330885
Martin King 2
Participant
@martinking2
Brian G, Many thanks for the clarification, I had looked at David Ricjes site but missed it!

Regards,Martin
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