What do i need for my new setup

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Well after many years I am now in a position to buy a new lathe & a mill. I have owned a large Colchester which i used for a variety of jobs on my machinery & I have had a Drummond M type for the last 40 years which I have used for threading. ( That will be up for sale in the next month)

So i do have a few old tools & cutters but nothing of any real significance as most went when i moved home. ( plus I now I am retired I have the time & a new workshop)

I have had the castings for a Stuart 10 v for 40 years & have been saving it for now that I can get the kit to machine it properly. So it will be the first project

I am off to the exhibition at Ally Pally on Friday 15Th & will be buying a Warco ( I think the ref is a 240 or 250) along with a milling machine. I will be looking at a milling mahine in the £7-800 mark. ( do not know what one yet)I have about £ 3-3.5K to spend so my question is this:-

Given that i will have a bit to spare- i intend to get a quick change tool post as well. But what else should I consider for first purchase along with my lathe & mill.

I am talking about the very first items & I do not want to find I have made silly choices

Any advice greatly appreciated

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Welcome Sam. Drop by the St. Albans stand at ally pally and say hello.
Are you looking at the 250 inverter drive version. If not the upgrade would be the best use of the spare cash.

Otherwise if you have spare cash get a bigger mill.

edit: much bigger mill. It  looks like you have enough for a VMC.

Edited By Bazyle on 06/01/2016 00:39:10

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

I spent a bit on an arrand tailstock quick change tool holder, great if you are doing a fair bit of drilling and threading.
Think about what chucks come with the lathe package as I found a couple of additional.chucks were a good buy to increase flexibility, an ER 32 and 4 jaw self centring are good.
Think.of your mill tooling carefully as you want the ability to do lots and change fixtures quickly.
Does your proposed mill have a DRO ? Another good way to burn thru your retirement fund lol. Happy turning.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Tractor man:

"I spent a bit on an arrand tailstock quick change tool holder, great if you are doing a fair bit of drilling and threading"

I have been interested in these for some time but yours is the first "live" reference I've seen. Might you, whether in this or another thread, post a description of their working and a photo or two?

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Consider power feed for the mill. If it is not an option for the one you look at you may soon finding yourself wanting it. It is easier to get a mill you know can have it added in the future without a lot of messing around. Power feed does help with finish as well, it also frees up hands for other things such as brushing away swarf and spraying coolant or wielding a vacuum hose.

As Bazyle said when looking at mills bigger is usually better, you can do small things on a big mill, the other way round does not work. A lot of people have bought the 6×26 (Warco VMC or Chester 626 for example) milling machine and found they need to make a riser for the head to get acceptable clearance. This is just an example of what happens if you get a mill that seems big to someone new to mills.

As Tractor man says DROs make life with a mill much easier. If you buy a mill ask if there is an option to have them fitted at the time of purchase, you do not have to buy it but it will tell you if it is possible to add yourself if required in the future.

Clamping kits and/or vices are something you will need to use the mill as well as some end mills or other cutters.

I would suggest you avoid a morse taper spindle if possible, some may disagree, because of the number of posts I have seen asking for suggestions on removing ones that are stuck. I also think that having to bang away on a drawbar if one is a bit tight to remove does not do a lot for set up when trying to maintain position between tool changes.

Martin

[egaParticipant @ega]

Martin Connelly:

MT spindle – I wouldn't go so far as to disagree, but the MT spindle does have some advantages and I would guess most new mills today would feature a captive, self-extracting drawbar so there should be no reason to "bang away".

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Ega, maybe that's something to check for then when looking at mills. If it is a morse taper spindle does it have an easy release mechanism?

Martin

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Thanks for the comments . Please keep them coming. cash is not really a limit .I want to get as much now as possible but not waste on stuff i might never use

I will look at larger milling machines but having never used one I am not familiar as to what i actually need

I have never heard of an arrand tailstock holder so need to research that one.

As for the mill & a driven table -It is the sort of thing one never thinks of

For instance i have seen a youtube video where the author recommends a variable speed lathe motor because although one thinks one will change gear easily one sometimes does not bother & runs at the wrong speed . I have found that i have done precisely that on my Drummond

I had intended to get morse tapers because I have a couple of morse chucks plus live centre. i also assumed the lathe would have morse tapers in the head & tailstock. Clearly it would be prudent to stick to the same taper — or would it ???

I already have a 220mm diam 4 jaw chuck. Just need a spare face plate to mount it on

I will get some end mills but not many until I get an idea of quality. I will also get a set of clamps & possibly adjustable packers

I was advised by a toolmaker years ago not to bother with carbide tipped tools on a small lathe as they are not as sharp as tool steel & need lots of power. Is this still the case. i have certainly lost a few tips on my old Colchester lathe

Are indexable tools worth it – I assume quality of tips could be an issue – How will I know what make to get – presumably a make that i can get spare tips easily– any advice on manufacturer with reasonable pricing please?

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

A lot of lathes have morse taper spindles but certainly not all. Also morse taper tool holders for a mill do not have a tang, they have a threaded hole for a drawbar. This means that some tooling such as a drill chuck may be used on lathes and mills but are not necessarily easy to remove compared to a tailstock that ejects tools when retracted or spindles with a slot for putting a drift in. This is where the comments about banging on a draw bar or other length of rod comes from. Do not put milling cutters in a drill chuck, the cyclic side loading can loosen the chuck with unhappy consequences. If you have a choice between morse taper and R8 on a mill the cost of tooling to fit it should be something to consider before making a choice.

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

To go with the mill I would suggest

Clamping kit

4" or 6" vice depending on mill size

ER collet chuck and range of collets to fit

4" or 6 " angle plate depending on mill size preferably a matching pair

2" boring head and tools

Slitting saw arbor

Flycutter

Set of parallels

Maybe a rotary table and spin indexer though they can follow.

J

 

Edited By JasonB on 06/01/2016 19:27:49

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

"I will look at larger milling machines but having never used one I am not familiar as to what i actually need"
Probably a good idea to hand on a while get a better understanding. You will have plenty to occupy yourself with when you get a lathe.

Plus you can prepare the shed with wiring alarms, insulation and a dehumidifier.

[VicParticipant @vic]

 

 

Posted by JasonB on 06/01/2016 19:02:46:

To go with the mill I would suggest

Clamping kit

4" or 6" vice depending on mill size

ER collet chuck and range of collets to fit

4" or 6 " angle plate depending on mill size preferably a matching pair

2" boring head and tools

Slitting saw arbor

Flycutter

Maybe a rotary table and spin indexer though they can follow.

J

I agree with all of those except the clamping kit. I made up my own set from individual bits for a lot less money and made my own T nuts which are a lot better fit (and quality) than the kit ones.

I don't use a QCTP as I only generally use a few tools and have glued or screwed the required packing to them to keep them on centre.

I'm also a big fan of the Tangential tool holder which gets a lot of use on my lathe.

Edited By Vic on 06/01/2016 19:30:47

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

ARC have some interesting milling vices – (I might even buy one Ketan)

A lot more interesting than some others.

John

–

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Bazyle on 06/01/2016 19:22:42:

"

Plus you can prepare the shed with wiring alarms, insulation and a dehumidifier.

Already done Have just spent £8 K on a new workshop 22 ft * 11 ft with insulated walls & roof, excellent lighting, sockets at every 600mm along each wall, radiant heaters lots of racking. windows, metal side door. It is in addition to my old garage which will still house excess tools etc so new shop is not cluttered. So i now have a total of 500 ft square of workshop space in 2 buildings side by side

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

I would highly recommend one of the 626's.

If you buy one of the VMC 626's don't be too put off by the Morse 3 Vs R8 argument. It is very easy to modify the Morse taper 3 version spindle ( without removing even it from the machine) and then to make a simple drawbar ejector with no hammering necessary at all to remove the holders.

Adding a 100mm or so spacer under the head significantly increases this machines versatility.

I would then go for an ER40 chuck Morse or R8 to suit and full collet set for the mill plus an ER40 Backplate or cam lock mounted chuck for your lathe. The collet set can be shared by both machines and will give you a grip range of 2-26mm in both machines.

Clamping kit – I would not go for the 14mm kit that is intended for this machine. IMHO all the M12 studs and clamps are overkill for this machine. I bought this set initially but no longer use it on the mill.

I personally have now gone for the 12mm kit which uses M10 studs and fittings and made 6 x new T Slot nuts 14mm wide but M10 holes. To me is more suited for this machine size and does not feel like overkill.

I personally also find the 4" low profile vice more suitable for me but this will be driven by what you reckon you will be machining.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Yes, I've got a self ejecting drawbar for my MT3 Warco VMC but I also use an ER32 collet chuck anyway.

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

Don't be put off using carbide tooling, just be careful what you buy. There is a lot of poor stuff out there, either old stock or poorly made stuff.

For some time I have been using positive rake polished inserts designed for aluminium. These inserts are superb on aluminium but also work very well on all types of steel I have tried, including stainless.

Doug

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

MalcB

did you mean in your post above that if i have a MT3 in my mill and want it to be R8 instead …it is an easy mod with the spindle in situ?

Care to explain how?

Ian

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 07/01/2016 19:10:40:

MalcB

did you mean in your post above that if i have a MT3 in my mill and want it to be R8 instead …it is an easy mod with the spindle in situ?

Care to explain how?

Ian

He said it's easy to make an MT3 taper self ejecting without removing the quill.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Douglas Johnston on 07/01/2016 10:44:53:

Don't be put off using carbide tooling, just be careful what you buy. There is a lot of poor stuff out there, either old stock or poorly made stuff.

Doug

But how does a beginner know what is Ok & what is not. Just paying more money does not always mean that I will get a fair return

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

One of my other problems is indexable tooling. If I buy a , say, L hand cutter & forget who I got it from then how can i tell if I can get matching bits somewhere else. In other words are bits graded for shape & size somehow as well as material to be cut?

I do have a single indexible cutter but the bits are pretty useless. If for instance I am taking the first cut on a slightly out of shape round & the bit misses then hits it breaks the tips immediately. I had some carbide tools that did the same on the lightest of cuts. Even on very light cuts. I seem to get infinitely better results with HSS ground myself

I do not understand why when i see tipped milling cutters cutting on part of a radius then missing part of the circumfrence then cutting again they do not break as they suddenly hit the material. All mine have!!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Most of the holders take standard inserts, a few cheap sets have almost "unique" inserts and should be avoided. If you look for holders that take CCMT or CCGT shape you won't go far wrong and on a 250 size lathe the next number in the code is the size and the 06 will be quite adequate. 10mm shank tools would be about right too.

I find a right hand holder more useful as you cab turn and face with that without moving the tool in the post

Should not be a problem on interupted cuts its either the way you have them set up or are using them. I use mine on some quite big iron castings that give a very interupted cut with no problems.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Make sure the torq screw holding the insert  is done up quite tight, if it is at all loose the tips will shatter on interrupted cuts. Tips designed for aluminium seem to work well on most materials, steel, brass etc

Plenty of choice on ebay

[egaParticipant @ega]

I have often wondered how much torque to apply to these Torx screws.

[Author]

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