stamford show vandals

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

34046!

How inhuman and ignoring THEIR human rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

How about the human rights of their victims?

"Why were they born so beautiful? Why were they born so tall?"

WHY WERE THEY BORN AT ALL?

That should get me banned as a subversive

Howard

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Nice to see that this wanton act has touched people and the crowdfund has now topped £31,000, a significant sum but its difficult to replace the amount of human effort destroyed by the mindless idiots. Hope the club can make something special with the funds.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 19/05/2019 22:03:41

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

This is going to affect all of us. Insurance premiums for clubs will undoubtedly rise mostly just to the benefit of the insurance company directors.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Most of us instinctively would like to see the perpetrators whipped with red hot barbed wire but would it be more constructive to show them the skill, effort and love that went into what they have destroyed? Making them understand what they have done would probably be more useful than a punishment. If the club members could stomach being in the same room as the perpetrators perhaps teaching them the skills to repair or replace the damage they have done would be an appropriate rehabilitation to become decent human beings. I do assume that most people are decent deep down but some need to have normal values shown to them as they may not have experienced them before, of course they may have normal behaviour inhibited by drugs or drink in which case rehabilitation can be more difficult. The back story to this outrage could be more complex than we know, the days when most of us had right and wrong clearly defined by our elders seem sadly to be a thing of the past, some of the young are being failed by not having the values of common decency imparted to them, I could have said watch Jeremy Kyle for examples but thankfully we can’t any more, the few times I saw the show was more in disbelief that such people exist and want to air their troubles on TV but no doubt the desperate are easily persuaded by money.

Mike

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

I 100% agree with Mike Poole's reply, he put into words exactly everything I thought when I saw the BBC report a few minutes after it appeared on their news website.

Ian P

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Now the initial venom has died down, especially in me I hasten to add, I think Mike Poole deserves to be heard.

Restorative justice is what hes talking about, a concept we dont use as we have a cultural mindset based in punitive measures. Which clearly work so well, as our jails are empty and no one re offends.

If it did work we would only ever have executed or birched one criminal and never had to do it again.

But restorative justice can work, not for every case I admit, some psychopaths have no conscience upon which to work. But for a great many offenders it can work.

BUT MORE IMPORTANT than that is what it can do for their victims. It can bring some relief and peace and it can give them a voice; something our current justice system does not.

One of the most frequent questions a victim will ask is "Why me?"

Why did they do this to me, why now, why why why? The justice system does not set out to address this basic human response to harm.

Restorative justice does, it allows the victim to communicate with the offender and ask that simple question. And along with that maybe make some sense of what has happened.

Most times it can also help the offender but that's a happy addition and not the core reason to engage in restorative justice.

Just Google Why me? or watch a little video called the Woolf within and tell me you think it is modern rubbish. But I met Peter Woolf in person and I can tell you, it's better than what we waste millions on now.

Just my ten pennorth as an ex criminal justice system worker. My gut instinct was flog em, then I settled down and started thinking less passionately.

Regards Mick

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Restorative justice, fine but AFTER they've been whipped with red hot barbed wire. Not just a case of turning a few tables over but wanton destruction. Pity we don't have stocks anymore. Saudi Arabia have a good system.

Regards Ian.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

I am afraid we have become too soft. If we still had the birch there would be a lot less trouble. When you have been birched once you certainly do want a second helping!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

This is a particularly offensive act because we can all empathise with the horror and despair of the people whose work has been destroyed.

It's easy to forget worse crimes happen, because this is so close to our own interests.

We know nothing about the perpetrators and why they did it, or what else they have or have not done. The punishment should be sufficient to show others that such behaviour won't be tolerated by our society, but ultimately this was 'damage to property' and as such it carries a maximum sentence of ten years. If first offenders and/or young teenagers the sentence is likely to be less as it will be proportionate to acts like physical assault, theft or sexual assault.

As Mike says the real aim needs to be making sure this doesn't turn into the start of a criminal career for the idiots who did it. They might have lists of ASBOs as long as your arm, or more likely they may be idiots who started with a prank and it got out of control. They may not all be equally culpable, and they may have mental health issues. It's easy to be angry; if someone destroyed my models I would be angry but I'd be far angrier if some assaulted a loved one.

Mostly, I hope the club are able to give victim statements, and given support beyond just a pile of cash.

I suspect this act is not unrelated to the decline in services for young people that also appears to be influencing violent crime in this age group. The real question isn't 'what do we do with the offenders?' but 'what does this tell us about our society?'

Neil

[Guy LambParticipant @guylamb68056]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/05/2019 10:42:55:

This is a particularly offensive act because we can all empathise with the horror and despair of the people whose work has been destroyed.

It's easy to forget worse crimes happen, because this is so close to our own interests.

We know nothing about the perpetrators and why they did it, or what else they have or have not done. The punishment should be sufficient to show others that such behaviour won't be tolerated by our society, but ultimately this was 'damage to property' and as such it carries a maximum sentence of ten years. If first offenders and/or young teenagers the sentence is likely to be less as it will be proportionate to acts like physical assault, theft or sexual assault.

As Mike says the real aim needs to be making sure this doesn't turn into the start of a criminal career for the idiots who did it. They might have lists of ASBOs as long as your arm, or more likely they may be idiots who started with a prank and it got out of control. They may not all be equally culpable, and they may have mental health issues. It's easy to be angry; if someone destroyed my models I would be angry but I'd be far angrier if some assaulted a loved one.

Mostly, I hope the club are able to give victim statements, and given support beyond just a pile of cash.

I suspect this act is not unrelated to the decline in services for young people that also appears to be influencing violent crime in this age group. The real question isn't 'what do we do with the offenders?' but 'what does this tell us about our society?'

Neil

Very cogently put Neil. I often wonder how people who have lost loved ones to knife crime &c view our reaction to what is only 'criminal damage' to, all be it, someones pride and joy.

Because we as a group are creative people we tend to firstly identify with then over react to such events, that is not to denigrate the Stamford modelers situation in the way.

But, the "Hanging is too good for them" side of the debate need to take stock and think well on such pronouncements.

Guy

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Mike has said it perfectly.

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

This sort of destruction is completely beyond my understanding and I like to think I can understand most things. We see the same sort of destructive attitude to flower displays and newly planted trees in parks when real humans think they are lovely and would like more. Wanton destruction should attract a long and very visible hard labour sentence of benefit to the community.

My sympathy goes out to the club.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Around half of people released from prison will re-offend within a year. Doesn't say much for the effectiveness of prisons does it. Persistent criminals in Holland are ''given two-year sentences and tailor-made rehabilitation programmes. Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release". The Dutch prison population has fallen by 43% in the last few years, at the same time crime has fallen by 25%. We lock up nearly 3 times as many people per head of population. What we need is more effective policing so that miscreants are caught, followed by proper supervision/training during probation/prison. UK has 208 policemen per 100,000 population, Holland has 381. We privatised out probation service so that profit became more important than rehabilitation.

More stats, prisoners per 100,000 population UK 140, France 104, Germany 75, Holland 61. I know politicians don't like to base their decisions on evidence, but it is pretty clear to me that we need a rethink, prisons as we run them clearly don't work.

Corporal punishment just shows offenders that violence against the person is acceptable, not quite the message we are trying to get across.

I will now get off my soapbox, and retire to the workshop.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

But, the "Hanging is too good for them" side of the debate need to take stock and think well on such pronouncements.

Well I guess I am guilty of tending towards the above group. My frustration really originates from the 'modern' expectation that the criminal justice system is veiwed by the more liberally minded as a substitute for the inability of society to instill proper morals within itself. I am afraid my view is the penal system should provide deterrent and punishment for those that refuse to conform to the majority accepted standard of respect for others and the basic premis of right and wrong. The expectation of that function being performed by the penal system will not reduce offences. It's locking the door after the horse has gone! I have a major problem with human rights for offenders, they make a choice be it conscious or unconscious to commit these acts, when they do they should accept the normal priveledges associated with liberty and respect of their rights are removed. In carrying out the act these morons did they had no respect for the efforts or time expended by the owners of the property they destroyed. No amount of money can replace that time and effort and the psychological effect on the victims will be immense. The expectation that a short or soft response by the court attached to some love and forgiveness will turn these people around is naive. Society itself as Neil suggests needs to look in the mirror and govern itself to produce moral upstanding citizens. The courts should deliver retribution to those that fail to respond. The very way society as whole is being manoeuvred by marketing and commercialism to create the desire to have the latest fashions in clothes and gadgets is not helping!

I refuse to accept that these poor misguided individuals have not experienced at any time in ther short lives any positive examples of right and wrong, I also very much doubt they have any shred of remorse and if reading any comment on line regarding this incident they will probably be revelling in the 'fame'. They did the crime, they should be sanctioned, not rewarded.

Paul.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

While in no way condoning the behaviour of these youths, I have a glimmer of understanding how their behaviour may have been influenced by an internal rage magnified by mob spirit.

Before I retired, for a number of years I taught technology and science to teenagers in pupil referral units and special schools (I still volunteer one day a week). When one learns of the unspeakable physical, emotional and spiritual damage caused to some of these youngsters by the adults in their lives, it it surprising that they turn out as well as they do.

By the way, 'technology' often would be better described as 'therapeutic woodwork' as some youngsters are helped more by spending an hour drilling holes or banging nails into a lump of wood than by any formal or structured approach, Ofsted be blowed.

When you point out that they can now knock a nail in straight or drill a hole without splitting the wood it is often the first positive thing they have heard all day. Making some small trinket, no matter how rough and ready, is often the first success they have felt, and some feel huge pride in taking it home to Mum – the ones, that is, who aren't prevented by a legal injunction from entering their mother's home..

Society is producing more and more damaged youngsters, and is not making anywhere near enough special provision to prevent the damage or rectify it after it's done. Our political masters – of all hues – remain determined to force all young people into the same educational Procrustean Bed, and it doesn't work. I'd better get off my horse now before I start on Gove and his so-called "English Baccalaureate" which is designed to turn them all into middle-class grammar school kids with a nice classical education, unsullied by any creative, constructive or artistic influence whatever.

I shall watch the fate of these four youths with interest. It could still turn out that they are just spoiled and selfish brats.

George

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Such vandalism by youngsters is not exactly unknown – during research on other topics I have been reading through the WW1 diaries of the Douglas (IoM) chief constable – many examples of youngsters (aged 8 upwards) breaking into shops etc usually looking for money but also wrecking the contents – generally they were found within a day of the report, in Court that day or the next and often sentenced to be birched (this continued on IoM until early 70s) or for repeat performances sent to English ‘industrial schools’ or reformatories – I think there has been a PhD research project to follow up these boys – I’ll ask around but in the 1970s research suggested the birch wasn’t really a deterrent) but I suspect what helped was the post WW1 strong support for football clubs etc – the fast response was due to the ’embedded’ nature of the police constables who quickly heard who was involved + probably the ‘vigorous’ questioning thereof. Of course in mid 1800s the court just gave those 14 or older a oneway ticket to sunny Australia if any item worth 6d or more was involved.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

My wife was involved in one of our village playgroups when our boys were young, we still have their creations somewhere, my wife witnessed one of the parents put their child’s work straight in the bin, I don’t know what that behaviour does to a child but I am sure it can’t be positive. I am sure most of us have been involved in youthful pranks that do not involve mindless destruction but are probably irritating to the victim, I am thinking of stunts like taking someone’s gates for a walk down the road and stuff like that where no permanent damage is done but is likely to be very annoying to the victim.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Is it possible those in favour of severe punishments have more in common with these youths than they might care to admit? Bunch of stupid lads cause pain by wrecking an exhibition, and we have grown-up forum members wanting to inflict: a fall down stairs, the stocks, 100 lashes, castration, being not allowed to live, bread and water, being whipped with red-hot barbed wire, the birch, and denial of Human Rights. (Human Rights protect citizens from the State; think disappearances, torture, arrest without trial and genocide. They are not to be dismissed lightly.)

I'd be all for brutal punishments if they worked. But they don't. Apparently Stalin had about 70 officials shot after a railway accident. Well they won't do that again.

Part of the problem with lashing out is it ignores motive, which includes the possibility of mental illness. National Audit Office report on British prisons:

'Rates of self-inflicted deaths and self-harm in prison have risen significantly in the last five years, suggesting that mental health and well-being in prison has declined. Self-harm rose by 73% between 2012 and 2016. In 2016 there were 40,161 incidents of self-harm in prisons, the equivalent of one incident for every two prisoners. While in 2016 there were 120 self-inflicted deaths in prison, almost twice the number in 2012, and the highest year on record. Government needs to address the rising rates of suicide and self harm in prisons as a matter of urgency.

In 2016, the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman found that 70% of prisoners who had committed suicide between 2012 and 2014 had mental health needs.'

It is a fantasy that Prison is an easy ride. They do allow criminals to network and exchange skills.

Only severe punishment will correct the distorted mindset of draconian forum members. You are all sentenced to read nothing but the Guardian for one year and strictly forbidden to read the Daily Mail ever again…

To be clear, I have no sympathy with the perpetrators. I don't know anything about them. It's the job of the courts to assess the facts and decide their future, not inflamed public opinion.

Dave

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

I have travelled the world and spent considerable time in most European countries excluding Skandinavia.

IMHO, wanton vandalism ie destruction of actual property rather than graffitti etc is pretty much a unique British thing.

I have not seen mindless violence/property destruction on a remotely similar scale anywhere in Western Europe.

Another British disease?

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Thaiguzzi. De-forrestation, Palm oil plantations ……. its all vandalism.

BobH

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The wish for draconian punishments is fuelled by the anger at the destruction of so many years work and skill.

What brings folk to such acts is a lack of knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. This stems from poor parenting, and poor peers, for whatever reason.

My wife was a teacher in a Special Unit. One year in the run up to Christmas she witnessed two children "putting a baby to bed". One child kissed and cooed over the infant, (came from a poor but obviously loving home). The other flung the baby into the cot, with garbled mouthings equating to "shut up and don't be a nuisance, or you'll get it".

Her description of the home from which the child came almost defies imagination. She gave the child a soft toy. At the court hearing about taking the children into care, the child was clutching the toy as if his life depended on it.

From such a background, it is small wonder that they are odds with society. What we all take for granted, as "normal" is beyond their imagination or understanding. Equally, we find it difficult to imagine what is in their minds; hence extreme anger at such behaviour. Literally poles apart.

Bringing knowledge of each to the other is not impossible, but a very difficult and demanding task.

As Mike Poole says, the realisation of what is involved in making what the vandals have destroyed, could be the start of the road to their salvation from a wasted life.

Howard

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

This and other crimes are awarded community service as punishment, the theory being that the miscreants can in some way make recompense to society in general by carrying out community work. The theory has some merit but the reality is far different. A few years ago I was Churchwarden at our local church and the probation service who then organised community service agreed to send a number of those sentenced to community service to mow the grass in our rather large churchyard. Those detailed to carry out the task arrived on site, were briefed by a supervisor on what they had to do and provided with the mowers and petrol and the supervisor then left the site to go onto another group. As soon as the supervisor left the site the petrol was poured away and those remaining then focussed their attention on trying to break into the church to find something worth stealing. Needless to say we called a halt to accepting any further community service, our whole justice system appears to be in crisis with ineffective management from the top down. Unfortunately there are far too many do-gooders in our society who have too much influence in setting out our justice system. The current situation is a reflection of how broken our whole social system is, nothing is considered unless there is a profit at the end of the process. The austerity of the last ten years has accelerated the decline and problems our infrastructure is crumbling because of lack of investment. Sadly there was another example of extreme vandalism this last weekend when the Heathfield Agricultural Show here in East Sussex suffered an attack and the sidewalls of a number of large marquees were slashed during the night, causing many thousands of pounds worth of damage, inevitably insurance companies will pick up the bill and we will all pay through higher insurance premiums in the future.

Dave W

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