Liquified Poison Gas

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

ive been reading several articles of LBSC, Doris, Dot, Juliet, Bat etc. He keeps referring to spirit burners fuelled by "liquified poison gas" kept topped up by a sump in the tender.

Can anyone enlighten me? I had assumed these were methanol, meths, maybe paraffin… perhaps the L.P.G. Initials were the clue and it's propane? but not sure about the gas for a spirit burner…?

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

Fuel of choice for LBSC?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I wondered about that too. I think he's referring to methylated spirit. Unlike a coal fire, burning meths can smell pretty horrible. I hope someone knows.

Dave

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

I like his writing style, but I think it is one of his running 'jokes' that makes more sense as part of his overall writing career rather than reading each model description in isolation! Hopefully someone else does know…

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

L P G is normally interpreted as Liquified Petroleum Gas. So maybe something got lost in translation?

All gases are poisonous, even oxygen, (in excess); some more than others! By poisonous I mean will not support life as we know it.

Howard

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I think LBSC was referring to the fumes from burning methylated spirit which was the favoured fuel for his great rival Henry Greenly. LBSC was, of course, a coal firing enthusiast and never missed a chance to to deride the opposition.

Rod

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Yes, he was refering to methylated spirits.

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Definitely meths, he's referring to the smell when it is only partially combusted.

Neil

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

Maybe I'm strange in quite liking meths smell before, during and after combustion then!

Thanks for the info gents!

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Richard – Try it with a little tonic and a slice – you may like it even more

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

I also like the smell of meths both before and after burning but if only partial combustion takes place the gas given off is acrid , stinks to high heaven and pretty much guarantees to bring on a splitting headache. Under these circumstances, "poison gas" is a pretty good description.

Mick

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Further to the above, you can get a similar result from the incomplete combustion of LPG if the air/gas ratios are wrong.

Mick

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

stinks to high heaven and pretty much guarantees to bring on a splitting headache

Incomplete combustion will produce smoke (carbon particles). With meths that could also include partially oxidised bitterment compounds and thus stink – perhaps even simply volatilised bitterment compounds!

With both propane and meths (or nearly all other fuels, for that matter), burning under partially reducing conditions will inevitably form CO (carbon monoxide) which is a poisonous gas. CO has no smell. Think yourself lucky that you were not in a too confined area and/or the exposure was for too long. CO kills.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I think meths has changed a bit since LBSC's day. It used to contain pyridene to make it smell bad but it has probably been removed because of it's harmful effects which include loss of fertility in men!

The varieties of meths we can buy here even includes one that is lemon scented.

Russell

[NIALL HORNParticipant @niallhorn50878]

Incomplete combustion of methanol may produce formic acid – smell of an ants' nest!

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

As a precaution against poisoning myself I have rigged up a ventilation system which "sucks up" the emissions from the locos chimney and disposes of it outside the workshop. Together with open door and windows I reckon this should keep me fairly safe. But I have still experienced most obnoxious smells from gas firing ….obviously not CO….but other products of the (incomplete?) combustion. What other gases could be produced? In theory and complete combustion H2O and CO2…. but what produces those eye watering fumes?

Mick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 22/07/2017 10:57:33:

I think meths has changed a bit since LBSC's day. It used to contain pyridene to make it smell bad but it has probably been removed because of it's harmful effects which include loss of fertility in men!

Sent me looking. It seems the highly poisonous 'meths' was removed from the UK formulation, but napthas included instead. In 2005 it still contained pyridene:

"Completely denatured alcohol must be made in accordance with the following formulation: with every 90 parts by volume of alcohol mix 9.5 parts by volume of wood naphtha or a substitute and 0.5 parts by volume of crude pyridine, and to the resulting mixture add mineral naphtha (petroleum oil) in the proportion of 3.75 litres to every 1000 litres of the mixture and synthetic organic dyestuff (methyl violet) in the proportion of 1.5 grams to every 1000 litres of the mixture."

But changed in 2013:

"The European Union agreed in February 2013 to the mutual procedures for the complete denaturing of alcohol:^[9] Per hectolitre (100 L) of absolute ethanol: 3 litres of isopropyl alcohol, 3 litres of methyl ethyl ketone and 1 gram denatonium benzoate."

I once had a bottle of meths where the violet colour disappeared over about six months. I assume it had the 'wrong' die in it.

The 'denatured' alcohol I drink has Laphhroaig on the label

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 22/07/2017 13:55:17

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

What other gases could be produced?

Like natural gas, propane will contain small amounts of sulpur ethers (or other sulphur compounds) to give it a recognisable smell (to allow leak detection before an explosion occurs!). Even with complete combustion SO2 will be produced in small amounts. All high temperature combustionncan also give rise tomoxides of nitrogen. Both of these are irritants and form the appropriate acids when dissolved in water.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/07/2017 13:53:23:

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 22/07/2017 10:57:33:

I think meths has changed a bit since LBSC's day. It used to contain pyridene to make it smell bad but it has probably been removed because of it's harmful effects which include loss of fertility in men!

Sent me looking. It seems the highly poisonous 'meths' was removed from the UK formulation, but napthas included instead. In 2005 it still contained pyridene:

…

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 22/07/2017 13:55:17

Going back earlier to 1892 (Crookes), Methylated Spirit was made by adding 10% Crude Wood-spirit to Ethyl Alcohol, modern name Ethanol. Both alcohols were impure, crude wood-spirit particularly so. Crude Wood spirit was made by the destructive ditillation of wood. What came out of the still varied considerably, but was mainly Methyl Alcohol ((aka Methanol) heaviliy contaminated with Acetone, Acetic Acid and Tar. Potentally stinky for sure.

The blue colour in meths looks exactly like Methylene Blue dye to me. If so, it's slowly bleached by sunlight.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/07/2017 18:19:33

[Ron ColvinParticipant @roncolvin83430]

I use Methylated Spirit to thin Epoxy Resin for use as a varnish, Mixing it has the effect of instantly making the colour disappear.

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