Copper Solid Rivets

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Not a specific question this time, more an appeal for any info anyone deems relevant and is willing to share. I am in the process of making up a new bonnet for a vintage car. The panels are aluminium, most of the fittings (hinges, handles etc.) are brass. On the original item which I have been asked to copy, all the bits are held together using copper solid rivets. I have done plenty of pop riveting in my time but this is a new departure for me, thus I am on the hunt for all the info I can grab.

The vastness of the internet will of course be trawled directly, but in the mean time any hints on suppliers (of both rivets and tooling), useful instructional links, copper specs to look out for, machining up my own rivets if it comes to it and generally how to not make a t*t of oneself when riveting would be most gratefully received.

Many thanks,

S.M.

Edited By Stirring Moose on 29/07/2018 15:17:00

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Hello S.M. Many of the medel engineer suppliers with be able to supply copper rivets and the tools.

Are the rivets domed on one side?

What size shank (if known, otherwise it can be worked out from the head diameter)?

Roughly, where are you?, it may be that one of us can help with the rivets and the tools.

How many rivets do you need?

Brian

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Brian,

Many thanks for the quick response. To deal with the questions in order:

Some of the rivets are domed and I think that would have been the original spec. Hopefully having a chat with the client sometime this week to see which way we're going on that one.

At least two different sizes in use. Again, will be getting into details this week.

Am based in Crediton, near Exeter in Devon.

Number of rivets? Again that's TBC but wouldn't be surprised if we're knocking on the door of a hundred once done.

S.M.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Search Riveting on this site – there are at least 9 different threads for you to have a read of.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Are the original panels aluminium?

For aluminium boat equipment, eg aluminium masts etc. copper rivets and brass fittings would be an absolute no-no for corrosion reasons. Might be less of a problem with a car perhaps, especially if well painted, but aluminium rivets should be readily available if you so decided, and possibly easier to set.

Clive.

Edited By Clive Brown 1 on 29/07/2018 16:37:40

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 29/07/2018 16:15:38:

Search Riveting on this site – there are at least 9 different threads for you to have a read of.

Have already been nosing about on here as part of my own research. Some interesting bits and bobs but a lot of it a bit too "job specific". I'm really starting from scratch with the basics I'm afraid.

S.M.

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Posted by Clive Brown 1 on 29/07/2018 16:36:55:

Are the original panels aluminium?

For aluminium boat equipment, eg aluminium masts etc. copper rivets and brass fittings would be an absolute no-no for corrosion reasons. Might be less of a problem with a car perhaps, especially if well painted, but aluminium rivets should be readily available if you so decided, and possibly easier to set.

Clive.

Edited By Clive Brown 1 on 29/07/2018 16:37:40

Aluminium panels, brass fittings, copper rivets. That appears to be how they did it "back in the day" and we're trying to stay as faithful to the original as possible.

S.M.

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Google "riveting aircraft panels".

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

HI,

I use a lot of brake lining rivets for body work, various lengths and dia's……..

for specials I make my own……..

[SherlockParticipant @sherlock]

I actually researched this a while back.. Here are a couple of the best resources I found. Hope they are of help to you.

**LINK**

**LINK**

[NimbleParticipant @nimble]

Hi Stirring Moose,

Some time ago I was searching for hollow brass rivets for the cone clutch on my car, and came across the follows sites.

Hope they may help you with your search,

wwwchicagorivet.com, and

**LINK**

**LINK**

Regards,

Nimble Neil

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

A colleague has a Railton (1930s) with a long aluminium bonnet, and as you say, copper rivets for the hinges. He has had trouble with corrosion, and recently got a professional respray job done. He still has problems with corrosion. It may be that with a polished alloy finish rather than paint there is less chance for the corrosion to get a firm grip, but I have no confidence about that. Sorry. Good strong aluminium rivets are available, – they are used to hold aeroplanes together.

Cheers, Tim

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Lots of interesting info coming up here – thanks everyone. Interesting that the bimetallic corrosion issue keeps popping up. I've long been aware the problem between aluminium and steel but can't say I've come across it so much between aluminium and copper. Certainly no sign of problems when I removed the old copper rivets from the original aluminium panels to release the hinges and other fittings for re-use. Another interesting point is that a friend of mine who used to tend historic racing Aston Martins told me it was common practice to use copper grease to stop, or at least reduce, the corrosion where the aluminium body met the steel chassis/floor pan – a known rot spot on old Astons. Admittedly his is the only reference I have heard to the practice; anyone else encountered it?

S.M.

[SherlockParticipant @sherlock]

Here is a good explanation said much better than I could.

Let's start by looking at a single metal unconnected to any other metal. It is made of atoms that have positively charged nucleuses (okay, "nuclei", Miss Crabapple) which are surrounded by electrons which balance the charges, and all is well. Then let's say these atoms become exposed to a corrosive media (an electron stealer). The corrosive media steals an electron. Now that atom is no longer an atom, but a positively charged ion in search of an electron; so it dissolves into the media in search of an electron to balance it. So, what actually causes corrosion is the loss of electrons from the metal.

Metals are electrically conductive, i.e., electrons can run through them from one spot to another just as they run through a wire. So if two different metals are mechanically connected in any fashion at all without an electrical insulator between them, electrons can run through them.

Now take a chunk of two different metals connected together and expose them to a corrosive media which is stealing electrons. The way galvanic protection/corrosion occurs is: when the nobler metal (the copper in this case) has an electron stolen from it by the corrosive solution, it has a greater affinity for electrons than the baser metal and immediately steals back an electron from the baser metal (aluminum in this case). The result is that the copper atom remains a balanced atom of metal, and the aluminum atom comes up short and corrodes into solution.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

I'm sure Miss Crabapple would have had a funny turn at the use of media in the single, too …

Cheers, Tim

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Apologies for not finishing this tale before now. Below are some pictures of the completed bonnet, complete with copper rivets. Thanks to all those on here who chipped in with bits of info

For those of an automotive bent, the vehicle for which the bonnet is ultimately destined is a 1924/28 3/4.5 litre Bentley.

S.M.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Beautiful!

Brian

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

If they are going to be painted over I would suggest Monel metal rivits.

Regards

Edited By FMES on 13/11/2018 21:35:49

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

No, aluminium is the way to go. Brass, copper, and aluminium, this could be a way of powering the next generation of electric cars

Ian S C

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

At least when the corrosion does start, observers will be able to note that the restoration was entirely authentic, complete with the dreaded corrosion of old!!

[Stirring MooseParticipant @stirringmoose]

Thanks for the comments. As indicated, authenticity is always factor with this kind of work so limited choice on materials – the old rivets were copper, so must the new ones be etc. I've had a nose around the old panels that were used as patterns for the job and actually there's relatively little sign of corrosion. Plenty of wear and tear, plus a few slightly unlovely mods from years past, but the basic metal is remarkably sound. How long this bonnet will last remains to be seen. If the old ones were indeed 1924 originals they did 94 years, so that takes us up to the year 2112. That'll probably do …

S.M.

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