Can you identify this mill?

[GavlarParticipant @gavlar]

I'm keeping an eye out for a mill for a friend. He doesn't want a mini mill nor a Bridgeport size, just a a capable hobby machine. I've seen this one on ebay, incorrectly described as a horizontal milling machine, item number 185765805948, not too far away, not too big, and thus far, not too expensive. Seller doesn't know the make or model. I've spent an hour going through pictures of mills on lathes.co.uk and barely got through a quarter of those he has descriptions of but am yet to find this one

Can anyone identify it please?

Edited By Gavlar on 09/02/2023 00:32:26

[GavlarParticipant @gavlar]

[Craig BrownParticipant @craigbrown60096]

I was intrigued by this machine when it was first listed, its not something I recognise. I first thought it looked fabricated but now I'm not so sure, maybe the castings are just boxy. The head appears to have nod and tilt features, useful for tramming the machine aswel as angled work. Extendable ram, also useful. The table isn't very deep but plenty long. It does have a knee but doesn't look like it has a quill, not the end of the world, just makes drilling more tedious. The only real unknown is the spindle taper.

Those were my observations, it could be a useful machine but condition and quality are hard to tell from pictures. If the price is right then it might be worth a punt or I would want to have a look at it first

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Is obviously quite old and difficult to identify from the pics / description. Worth a punt at that sort of price if you've got the facilities to move it and your friend has a strong workshop floor,but not knowing the spindle taper could be a drawback. Does appear to have quite a few 'accesoroes' from the write up so they would be useful if it turns out to be a non starter in the end.

regards Mike.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Lacking a quill means all vertical feeds have to be via the knee which is a serious inconvenience if its your only mill.

No visible drawbar so spindle could well be solid with a native fitting to take that Clarkson chuck. If so no chance of fitting a drill chuck for drilling which further, limits the usefulness of the machine.

My take is that it's fundamentally a relatively inexpensive production machine basically aimed at the same sort of work as the small Adcock Shipley vertical mills and their competitors. But clearly much cheaper ex factory and, due to the ram, able to handle lighter work extending well off the table.

One to pass on unless you can source a proper vertical head with a quill. Or possibly modify something off a heavy duty drill. With a quill feed head it would be a nice little machine. As it it will suck up enthusiasm and simply not get used. Which is what appears to have happened to the seller.

Theoretically the knee only vertical adjustment isn't a deal breaker if you already have a pillar drill to make holes with. In practice that combination is frustrating in the home shop especially if doing model engineering type work.

Clive

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

interesting mill,could it have been a prototype that never went into production? looks like its made from castings,a nod and tilt vert head so somebody went to a lot of trouble, to make it and generally the proportions look ok,the moveable top ram with the large stud ,nut and washer looks crude but then its obvious,same type of adjustment as a shaper ram,with Clarkson collet holder in the spindle I would think that there is a good chance that the taper is two MT

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

No castings, just steel slabs welded together, the column is fully welded on the edges as if the knee. Shame the head has no visible dovetail mounting. Strictly speaking shop built with heavy duty work help on the night shift. Nudge nudge.

Not sure what the telephone connector box is for, but I wouldn't be putting mains through it.

It will tram as the head nods.

The lack of a quill doesn't seem to detract from a lot of the Centec's loose in the world. If you look the head might be on a short dovetail with 4 socket screws on the left side, the equally it might be flat clamp.

The crosslide travel needs to be confirmed. if you can't travel a cutter over the full width of the bed without moving the head that's a little more serious than a missing quill.

Don't pay too much

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I would disagree with the "made from castings" commenet – apart from the table & maybe the underslide this appears to be largely fabricated to me.

On the view of the RHS of the machine (if you were stood in front of it) the welds can clearly be seen on the column, base & over arm. The overarm just appears to have a flat base sat on the flat column top, secured with a large bolt through a slot in the arm.

The Clarkson collet chuck looks to be of the 2MT type, with the threaded support collar & a small gap can be seen betweeen it and the spindle nose. I would think that there is a very good chance that the spindle is 2MT. Even if the collet chcuck is "built in" to the spindle, fitting other tooling would be possible using parallel shank tools in the collet chuck.

There does appear to be some movement capability to the spindle, as gib strip screws can be seen on the LHS of the front swivel slide behind the spindle "casting" & on the side view from the LHS of the machine there is what appears to be a leadscrew behind the spindle "casting". Can't see from the pictures posted how this screw would be turned, though, and it may be more of a fine spindle downfeed than useable for drilling.

The table seems rather narrow compared to the knee & I wonder if the builder used the table & underslide from a small horizontal milling machine & fabricated the rest to give a larger machining envelope than just putting a vertical head on a horizontal mill ?

Not sure why the seller calls it a horiziontal mill, though, as I can see no evidence of a horizontal spindle.

Nigel B.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The material sizes and welding involved in fabrication suggest it was made in a proper machine / welding shop. It all looks far too ambitious for a home workshop job.

The reach and flexibility of the long ram suggest it may have been custom built for a specific purpose such as light milling of relatively large components. Looks to me that the theoretical work envelope is on par with a Bridgeport or maybe a Beaver. If a firm din't need the strength to handle larger cutters and had the capability to make it in house the relative cost of making something more attuned to the job might have been very attractive. Especially so if the real job work was a bit intermittent with folk hanging around waiting for things to do and being paid anyway. As previous posts have suggested the knee, table and spindle assembly could well have been obtained or found from scrap machines so the precision part was mostly done.

Clive

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

The bevel gear drive to the knee elevating screw looks rather like the flywheel & driven gear from a hand powered pillar drill of the type sometimes seen in older blacksmiths shops, but used in reverse (geared down, rather than geared up).

The photos are reasonably hi res if you open them in new tabs & zoom in. The knee also appears to be a fabrication when zoomed in on.

Too far away for me to consider, even if I did have room !

Nigel B.

[jann westParticipant @jannwest71382]

what a strange old duck – looks shop made! likely either a piece of garbage OR a bargain for the right person who can inspect and has a specific need it meets. Can't see how to change the tool(holder) from the top! If it suits, this might be a better buy: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285132338165

[GavlarParticipant @gavlar]

Well I think I'll give it a miss. Interesting that no-one recognises it!

Thanks for all the responses.

[DellParticipant @dell]

There is a very tidy WM16 for sale in western super mare on gumtree that seems a very good price £800

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Clive Foster on 09/02/2023 13:50:50:

The material sizes and welding involved in fabrication suggest it was made in a proper machine / welding shop. It all looks far too ambitious for a home workshop job.

cut

Clive

Hi Clive, I'm not saying the fabrications weren't made in a commercial shop, but having been involved in fabrication and welding all my working life, I can quite understand that someone who is/has been a fabricator/welder, could produce such a thing quite easily at home.

Regards Nick.

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