Another “what lathe”

[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

Hi,

New here, but been lurking for a while.

I primarily make knives, both fixed and folding, as a hobby. However i'm becoming more and more interested in some model engineering.

I currently have a half decent workshop in my garage, but am missing a lathe and would like to acquire one. The problem is i know very little about lathes or "lathing"

Machinery wise Im happing with milling (both cnc and manual).

What do i want to do with a lathe?

Mostly it will be making stud, bolts, pivot screws, bearings etc mostly from M2 up to around M6. The materials will be brass, copper, stainless steel, as well as my homemade pattern welded steel (mostly 15N20/1085 mix).

Of course the more I read, the more I want to start on some small model engines.

Budget wise I'm looking at around £1000 on a lathe to leave the same again on tooling/stands etc..

Metric or imperial actually doesnt matter, knife wise..

Any ideas?

Many thanks

Joe

[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Assuming you are looking to buy new there are quite a few similar lathes in your price bracket. Choosing between them may come down to comparing the best deal based on tooiing, carriage, motor size/type and supplier reputation. Best single bit of advice I ever got was "bigger is better", though it was a long time before I outgrew my Mini-lathe,

None of the UK suppliers seem to have bad reputations. (Unless someone knows better.) On this forum Warco and ArcEuroTrade both have positive feedback. I have mostly Warco kit and the few minor problems I had were sorted out with no bother.

If you can run to £1200 Warco have an offer on the WM250 VS at the moment. Their cheaper lathes like the WM240 or WM180 would probably do what you want as well.

As lathes can be very heavy don't forget to think about how you will move it. It helps to have husky young men or an Engine Lift, also not to live on the 17th floor of a block of flats at the end of a country lane.

Good luck,

Dave

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

If you're looking at new lathes, I would suggest avoiding the DC motor versions and stretch the budget a little more to one of the Inverter based ones, I've have a Warco 250V for almost 2 years now and no complaints whatsoever.

If you can get to their open day in November, they usually have some good discounts on new machinery as well as a selection of ex demo/second hand to peruse.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Welcome Joe,

Plenty of choice, new or used, vast choice if willing to look at a little more.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

If your spending £2000 total I suspect one from Warco will include much of the tooling that is needed with a lathe – the expensive stuff anyway.

If you want collets though they don't include those. The other thing most people soon want is a quick change toolpost and a few holders. Especially one for a parting off tool however it's possible to get a holder that fits into the usual holder and takes deep blades with an insert.

HSS for tool bits isn't expensive but needs an off hand grinder which I suspect you may already have. Indexable tip holders needn't be expensive. The price if the actual tips varies but the ones that come on the cheaper holders are usually usable.

The 280V comes with a variable frequency AC drive. It and it's stand would come to a bit over £2000. Some people reckon that the milling heads that can be attached to these lathes are pretty good. Might be an option in the future if needed. Not used one so pass.

They list the accessories on the same page as the lathe. I don't think I would go for the tool set they offer. Most use rhomboid tips. I use triangular. 3 tips all the same. Looks like Warco's inserts only have 2 as they are diamond shaped.

Whoops that is this one – a pretty serious lathe capable of doing all sorts.

http://www.warco.co.uk/metal-lathes-metalworking-lathe-machine/302996-wm280v-lathe.html

The other model mentioned is popular as well.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 19/10/2016 19:26:48

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Personally, I would go for a second hand one with a name like Myford, Boxford, Colchester, etc.There's lots of tooling about for these and they were well made.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Mostly it will be making stud, bolts, pivot screws, bearings etc mostly from M2 up to around M6.

Just lost my comprehensive post, but basically you need to consider the extremes, not the 'mostly'.

A 250mm swing is OTT, in my opinion, for threading M2 (some will clearly disagree, I suppose). Most operations can be done on a mill with appropriate tooling.

But your choice. If going on to model making, the small threads can be be carried out with taps and dies at much lower cost, so a larger lathe might be a better choice.

I prefer old iron over the shiny new Chinese offerings. My priority choices would be a QCGB with separate feed and lead screws. QCTPs can come later.

[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

Thanks for the replies.

Ive been looking at both new and old.. Warco being the leader for new.

Myford and Boxford for ebay jobs.

Questions:

For stainless steel, how important is power and rigidity at say turning 6mm down to 4mm, then cutting threads? will a mini/micro lathe be in any way capable?

What are the min requiremnets i need in terms of power feeds and other features etc… i assume if i buy a warco 250 then i will be set. but not so sure buying a 1970s myford.

How bad is "play" when talking about the M2 – M3 OD i am thinking about? Im thinking about older lathes here.. easy to fix?

How much is good price for a myford or a boxford… eg.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232112991010?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232112991010?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

What would be reasonable amounts for these? And how much work would, or could, i put in to renovate.

Im very tempted to buy new… but seeing my father's eyes light up when i mentioned myfords has got me thinking… (he was a fitter on steam turbines at power stations)

Cheers

joe

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

A quote from the OP's post

I primarily make knives, both fixed and folding, as a hobby. However i'm becoming more and more interested in some model engineering.

Buying used Myfords is a mine field and when buying any used lathe it's a good idea to go take a look and do some turning with it and also take some steel, a micrometer and a decent turning tool. This means that there is a need to know what usually causes various problems. A lot of lathes are sold on the basis that things go round so all is ok. In real terms there are far more about that are past their best by various amounts including past their sell by date.

I sold a 4 jaw a while ago on a good Raglan back plate. By good I mean that it and the chuck fit the lathe properly. The buyer asked if the jaws were a good fit. Sensible question to ask. They were. Same with 3 jaws plus is the scroll damaged at all. It's best to ask.

The Chines lathes have improved a lot but in my view they still tend to thin things down more than they really should. The main effect of that is that really heavy turning at the max diameter they can take is probably a very bad idea. Providing people are aware of that it isn't really that much of a problem.

A used lathe with a chuck might look good price wise but it wont if further bits and pieces are bought. Sometimes on ebay ones with a lot of kit turn up and that can be a bargain – if all is ok.

Chinese chucks aren't as "nice" as Burnerd but they will do the job and new ones that come with new lathes should last a long time even with excessive hobby use. TOS chucks aren't as nice either.

It is a shame that they don't offer a quick method of changing feed speeds because that can be very useful. QCGB's or quick change gearboxes do offer that. Some of the new style Boxfords do offer something similar. Some have the ability to select more than one feed rate at the turn of a lever. Some don't so changes need the gears that drive the feed changing. Older Boxford;s can have worn beds and may have headstock bearing problems. It's much the same with any used lathe.

A lot depends on what a user wants from it really. Personally I prefer a decent finish without any messing around or one that polishes up very easily and also one that doesn't turn a significant taper. Putting all of that together means no noticeable wear in the bed, everything fitting rather well together, slides etc and headstock bearings that are in excellent condition. A more or less a hardly used lathe in other words. They can be about but there will be lots more that don't measure up.

You takes your choice basically hopefully with eyes wide open. Some used tool dealers are terrible. Ask to try a lathe and they will find the most horrible looking piece of steel and tool imaginable so that people will blame that rather than the machine. Personally I think that if some one uses a lathe and has a good one it wont be sold while they are around. Some newish used Chinese ones get sold because the user can't make effective use of them but also because they aren't very good for some reason. They may have simply lost interest as well. A smaller miller I bought once fell into the nothing wrong provided it was adjusted carefully category. That's ok providing some one can recognise that. My current miller was much the same but it's a sort of home made one built from a kit.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/10/2016 00:08:37

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Ajohnw on 20/10/2016 00:04:26:

Chinese chucks aren't as "nice" as Burnerd but they will do the job and new ones that come with new lathes should last a long time even with excessive hobby use. TOS chucks aren't as nice either.

John

.

With the exception of the Griptru, TOS now and have done for quite a few years, make the Burnerd range of chucks for them but badge them as Burnerd.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You might want to have a look too at the Sieg C3 mini-lathe, or similar clones. I've a mate with one and it's quite impressive for its size. No problem turning 6mm stainless etc as you ask.

+1 on be wary of secondhand Myfrods,Boxfords etc. Good lathes if you can get them in good condition. But a nightmare for a beginner if you get one that is worn out. Would you buy a 30- or 40- or 50-year-old car off eBay and expect to jump in it right away and use it every day for driving to work and on long holiday trips like you would a brand new car? Old machinery is old machinery. Buyer beware. That said, if you can find a good one, by having it inspected by a knowledgeable machinist before purchase, they will do a larger class of work than the mini lathes and they are a nice quality machine to use.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I second Hoppers comments about the Sieg C3. I've had one for about ten years and it has been excellent. I have turned 4140 steel down from 25 mm diameter to 10 and 6mm, (for a model aeroplane engine crankshaft) using carbide tips and the chips coming off blue. That was before the taper roller spindle, and taper saddle gibs upgrades, which has improved the lathe significantly.

No worries.

cheers

Bill

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by Joe Heath on 19/10/2016 09:06:43:

i know very little about lathes or "lathing"

I would recommend new unless you can address this issue. As suggested before, buying second hand is a gamble.

Personally, I think you can get away with a small lathe. I suggest you need a taper turning cross slide and 7 inches between headstock and tail stock chuck faces (10" 'between centres' may be a bit crapmed) so you can turn fairburn sykes style handles. You can lift a small lathe on your own which could be important to some. http://www.mini-lathe.com/

A well set up small lathe can turn difficult materials for M6 to M4 if you take smaller cuts.

Small, well maintained second-hand young lathes are rare on ebay and should sell well if you can be bothered – so worst case in buying a small new lathe from a recommended suppliers is not that bad.

Worst case buying a myford… could be a lot worse. I've seen some really bad ML7s. Fun restoration projects but that is a new hobby (one that knife makers may enjoy ).

4 jaw chuck and fixed steady are useful accessories and should be considered in package deals. Carbide tooling is not essential at first and HSS is preferred in many cases.

For M6 and below – I agree, taps and dies? I'm not convinced super accuracy is needed on these threads for folding knives but that is a bad attitude to let spread. Most situations I can think of, the screws are just for holding things together – critical location could be done by pins, and you don't use a screw thread dynamically (e.g. like providing feed on a lathe.)

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Stevenson on 20/10/2016 01:01:12:

Posted by Ajohnw on 20/10/2016 00:04:26:

Chinese chucks aren't as "nice" as Burnerd but they will do the job and new ones that come with new lathes should last a long time even with excessive hobby use. TOS chucks aren't as nice either.

John

.

With the exception of the Griptru, TOS now and have done for quite a few years, make the Burnerd range of chucks for them but badge them as Burnerd.

Nothing surprises me John. Actually I suspect that the difference I notice is down to the materials used. I vaguely remember seeing a Gloucester Tooling price list with chucks made of various materials in it. The price varied dramatically. The TOS chucks I was comparing tend to be chunkier all round just like many of the Chinese chucks sold. I suspect that this is down to materials.

John

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[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

Well i think you guys have put me off an old lathe now.. Sounds like i dont know enough yet to tell a good one..

I'm going to head to Warco on the 5th to have look at their range, also considering a Sieg.

Another company that crops up is amadeal. Prices look good, but has anyone had any experience with these:

http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/CJ18A-Mini-Lathe-Blue-Package-3—Brand-New-7×14-Machine-with-DRO—4–Chuck-2345254.html#SID=349

cheers

joe

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Questions:

For stainless steel, how important is power and rigidity at say turning 6mm down to 4mm, then cutting threads? This is more to do with the type of Stainless Steel being turned than the lathe. Some stainless steels are very hard others are straightforward to machine. will a mini/micro lathe be in any way capable? The excellent Sherline is not good at cutting steel. A Micro lathe is too small for the type of work I wanted to do (up to 50mm x 200mm) . A mini-lathe is markedly more capable than a micro, but I outgrew mine soon after retiring and having the time to indulge the hobby.

What are the min requiremnets i need in terms of power feeds and other features etc… i assume if i buy a warco 250 then i will be set. Yes, they will also deliver it, and you will be supported if it’s faulty. but not so sure buying a 1970s myford. This depends entirely on the particular Myford you happen to buy. The history of a lathe determines whether it is scrap or excellent, not the brand name. Many Myfords will have been cherished, some worn out, and others abused. Buying second-hand means you are on your own if you get a crock.

How bad is "play" when talking about the M2 – M3 OD i am thinking about? Im thinking about older lathes here.. easy to fix? Not necessarily easy or cheap to fix worn-out equipment. Replacement parts for good quality lathes are often expensive. Doing up an old lathe can be a challenging project in it’s own right.

How much is good price for a myford or a boxford… As a beginner it is very difficult to tell. Like buying a second-hand car so much depends on condition and who you are buying it from. eg.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232112991010?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232112991010?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

What would be reasonable amounts for these? And how much work would, or could, i put in to renovate. You can put in as much work as you like! If you want to get on with knives and model making, don’t buy a doer-upper. If you want to learn a lot about fixing lathes and enjoy doing it buy a wreck and fix it.

Im very tempted to buy new… but seeing my father's eyes light up when i mentioned myfords has got me thinking… (he was a fitter on steam turbines at power stations) Beware of old chaps in love with Myfords! For decades Myford were a very good choice. But times have changed. Does your Dad really know about lathes today, or is he just telling you what was good in his youth, forgetting perhaps that everything wears out eventually?

I don't recall seeing negative about Amadeal. It's worth checking out what prices and what you would get from the various suppliers before buying. Things like, hardening of the tool bed or not, VAT excl, carriage costs, what tools are included, motor power, special offers etc. DRO on a mill is a really good idea: I'm less convinced about DRO on a lathe.  You won't go far wrong whatever, but it's nice to get a good deal.

In retrospect I worried too much about buying my first lathe. Now I wish I'd bought one much earlier. I never regretted the purchase, and the experience I got from using it was invaluable.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 20/10/2016 10:32:56

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'm surprised more people don't take notice of this one

**LINK**

Weight wise it's just about handleable by 2 people. Speed range is excellent for screw cutting. Twin V wide bed which reflects in the weight. They also do a belt drive version that due to that will put out a lot of cutting torque at lower speeds. Probably explains the difference. The variable speed one does offer a better speed range for screw cutting if needed. They have fitted a motor twice as powerful as the belt drive version – good idea.

People often get hung up on weight and want too low but good machine tool are not light weight items.

Never used one but when I was looking around that particular lathe looked to be the best option for a small lathe to me. Other than power in some ways it's comparable with my Boxford. I was rather lucky to find that.

One Myford that can probably often be found in good nick is the Speed 10 and the later ML10 with taper roller bearings. The earlier ML10 where the spindle runs directly in cast iron will be risky. Some of that will be down to owners not maintaining them correctly. That plus lots of use is why ML7 and Super 7's can be a risk. Sorting bearings out on these lathes is not a trivial task. The small ML's just need the taper rollers changing however looking around at them in the past my impression is that not many get much use. The early ML1's, 2's, 3's and 4's were used for all sorts of things. I looked at a number of them years ago and failed to find a single one in decent condition. The main problem with the ML10 and Speed 10 is that if Myford don't still supply a fixed steady any one who wants one will probably have to make it. I have wondered if this is why some haven't been used much as it generally doesn't take people long to realise that they need one but much depends on what people want to make. You might have to pay getting on for £1000 for one of these lathes. I've seen them sell for more and less. Personally I wouldn't go near one of the early ones that doesn't have taper roller bearings – just in case.

John

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[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

Yes, the 240V is my current favourite warco lathe.

Also, i'm an anvil basher so i head towards the "heavier is better" side..

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Further to Ajohnw's comments amout the ML10 …

The other significant area of concern is the bed which [I suggest] needs to be thoroughly checked for wear.

Please see my post at the end of this page.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=104744&p=4

MichaelG.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I would go for a used English lathe,A Boxford or a Viceroy, the person who manufactured the Boxford went on to manufacture the Viceroy . both of these are good sturdy lathes and tend to be cheaper than the Myford plus they were tough enough for commercial use. Just read through previous threads and see how many users are trying to find out why their foreign machines fail and require adjustment when new.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/10/2016 12:25:59:

Further to Ajohnw's comments amout the ML10 …

The other significant area of concern is the bed which [I suggest] needs to be thoroughly checked for wear.

Please see my post at the end of this page.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=104744&p=4

MichaelG.

Being fair to the lathe Michael wear is most likely on the sides of the dovetail. Easily checked by adjusting the gibs or even feeling how stiff it is at each end and in the middle with the rack feed wheel providing it's not stupidly loose. That is never a good idea really on any dovetail slide. Ideally it needs to be done with the bed oiled up. The gib strip as on many used lathes can be worn at both ends as well which can cause them to have a sort of jamming feel to them.

The main thing about them really is that style of bed design. Wear causes looseness and that in turn has an effect on how well they will turn. The slide length to width ratio is not too good on them either.

To be honest I can't see why just 0.005" as a one off. It's not difficult to take less off anyway. It's just a case of taking out any table errors on the grinder by grinding the feet first. That can be done by inverting the bed standing on parallels directly under the feet and grinding the feet first. If some one can't remove say 0.002" that way they aren't trying. The area on the top is so large if more than that was needed I would say it would have had it for other reasons. They will need to take some of the top to ensure they get the right relationship with the sides. In really terms they could clock that up to better than a couple of thou so not much needs to be taken off their either. The advantage of doing it this way is that the stuff should still go back together without packing.

I think I would want a 7 reground before the limits mentioned in the link. More of the how much does the front of the headstock spindle run out too – doesn't mean anything really.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/10/2016 16:55:33

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 20/10/2016 16:55:02:

… To be honest I can't see why just 0.005" as a one off. It's not difficult to take less off anyway.

.

I was simply quoting the manufacturer, John … by way of a [perhaps surprising] warning.

MichaelG.

[Joe HeathParticipant @joeheath18777]

So tell me, do I have to choose sides on the whole new vs old thing? p

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

With a big bag of dosh to splurge take your time and learn as much as you can, there's a lot of nice kit out there, old and new, as well as dogs.

Personally speaking I wouldn't get a lathe if it didn't have any backgear but that's just me

[Author]

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