3 Phase Inverters

3 Phase Inverters

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  • #849717
    Paul Scholey
    Participant
      @paulscholey17560

      It seems common now to run 3 Phase motors from inverters, my question is do you loose the braking function of the 3 phase motor ? is the spindle on a lathe very slow to stop ?

      #849720
      John Haine
      Participant
        @johnhaine32865

        No, you can set both acceleration and deceleration parameters.  I have actually made the acceleration on my mill motor much too slow so it takes about 5s to reach full speed which is a pain – haven’t got round to changing it though!  But I have set it to stop very quickly.

        Braking is not an inherent function of a 3ph motor.  In normal installations the power is just open circuited and the motor will coast to a stop.

        #849723
        noel shelley
        Participant
          @noelshelley55608

          Rapid braking with a screw on chuck could be risky, eg a Myford. As John has said the braking is a parameter of the electronics not of the motor.  Noel.

          #849726
          Bazyle
          Participant
            @bazyle

            A hobby lathe is not slow to stop as there is not much mass compared to a big industrial machine but can be fitted with mechanical or electrical brakes for safety, especially in schools. A 3 phase motor has no more braking effect than a single phase one under normal simple connection.
            However some inverters are provided with a brake feature. This normally involves a large resistor to absorb and dissipate the energy but the feature is often omitted entirely from budget inverters or an option not included in cheaper ones.
            Since the advertising blurb for some imports is a bit vague on details if this aspect is important to you then it might be best to go to one of the more specialist suppliers advertising in ME&W.

            #849736
            duncan webster 1
            Participant
              @duncanwebster1

              Mine brakes without resistors or friction brake, some kind of electronic wizardry. Initially I had it set too high and it tripped the VFD when I had the 4 jaw on. Changed the ramp parameter and it’s now fine. If I had a screwed on chuck I’d be more wary, last thing you want is a chuck bouncing around the workshop.

              #849740
              Paul Scholey
              Participant
                @paulscholey17560

                Thank you for your reply’s, my knowledge of electric motors is a bit limited but I will take in what you’ve said, I remember using Harrison M300 at collage and the stopping seemed instant by what I can remember, Is there a popular make that people go for on here ?

                #849741
                Paul Scholey
                Participant
                  @paulscholey17560

                  Make of Inverter that is not Lathe

                  #849749
                  David Jupp
                  Participant
                    @davidjupp51506

                    There is DC injection braking and also use of a braking resistor.

                    My VERY limited experience with inverters suggests that the DC injection braking available is not as abrupt as achieved by a device such as a ‘spin brake’, which can give almost instant stop.  Resistor braking is gentler again.

                    Others who contribute here probably have much greater knowledge and can give advice on what may be possible/ sensible.

                    #849752
                    Charles Lamont
                    Participant
                      @charleslamont71117
                      On Paul Scholey Said:

                      Thank you for your reply’s, my knowledge of electric motors is a bit limited but I will take in what you’ve said, I remember using Harrison M300 at collage and the stopping seemed instant by what I can remember, Is there a popular make that people go for on here ?

                      I think it will have been fitted with a mechanical brake. Foot on the treadle to stop.

                      #849759
                      Paul Scholey
                      Participant
                        @paulscholey17560

                        It did have a foot on the treadle to stop, do Harrison M300s have a mechanical brake then that is electrically operated by the treadle ? I have a Harrison 140 with a clutch so no problem there, I have a very old Myford but would like to replace that with something a bit newer with a higher speed for small jobs

                        #849774
                        DC31k
                        Participant
                          @dc31k
                          On Paul Scholey Said:

                          It did have a foot on the treadle to stop, do Harrison M300s have a mechanical brake then that is electrically operated by the treadle?

                          There are pictures and a description of the machine on lathes.co.uk. Elsewhere, you can download a free pdf of the machine’s manual, complete with exploded diagram.

                          With a VFD _and_ a mechanical brake, a little care is needed to ensure the two do not fight each other. Press too hard on the brake when the machine is in a ‘low inertia’ state (i.e. stop the spindle faster than the VFD wants to) and the VFD can fault. Press too softly on the brake when it is in a ‘high inertia’ state and the VFD will also fault.

                          You have to set the parameters to cover the majority of your work and then be mindful when using the machine outside that envelope.

                          #849780
                          Robert Atkinson 2
                          Participant
                            @robertatkinson2

                            Most, if not all VFDs provide some form of braking. Note that a slow rampdown may acually take longer than just cutting power.. There is inertial energy in the motor and any rotating mass and to brake quickly the VFD has to convert this to heat. For large loads e.g. big chucks this can be too much for the internal devices and an external power resistor is required. As “bus overvoltage” trip is a sign you are exceeding the breaking capacity of the drive.

                            Robert.

                            #849792
                            Paul Scholey
                            Participant
                              @paulscholey17560

                              Thank you all,  the knowledge on here never fails to amaze me

                              #849796
                              Bazyle
                              Participant
                                @bazyle

                                The M300 does not by default have a friction brake. Almost no small lathes have one in the basic specification. That was an optional extra fitted in your case because it was an educational establishment.

                                #849823
                                Paul Scholey
                                Participant
                                  @paulscholey17560

                                  Thank you that explains that then

                                  #850285
                                  Paul Scholey
                                  Participant
                                    @paulscholey17560

                                    Is there any problems with the VFDs if the motor is a two speed ?

                                    #850289
                                    Julie Ann
                                    Participant
                                      @julieann

                                      It’s not ideal as two speed motors change the number of poles to change speed and they may also change from star to delta to ameliorate the loss of power caused by halving the speed. So, in theory, the VFD would need to be programmed differently for the two different speeds.

                                      Some VFDs may have the ability to change between two different programmed states. But I’ve never tried it in reality as all my two speed motors run direct from a 3-phase supply.

                                      Julie

                                      #850292
                                      Robert Atkinson 2
                                      Participant
                                        @robertatkinson2

                                        The only real issue with two speed 3 phase motors and VFDs is voltage. Most 2 speed motors are designed for 415V phase to phase and standard 240V single phase input VFDs have only 240V phase to phase output. While it is in theory possible to re-wire a two speed 415V motor as a single speed 240V the physical construction of the windings make it difficult.
                                        You can of course buy VFDs with the output voltage higher than the input. These often don’t reach the full 415 V output voltage but work OK. They do tend to cost more.
                                        You can also run a 415V motor off a 240V output VFD (needs to be rated for the full power of the motor). This will reduce the available power at higher speeds but the dual speed function helps with this. You will still get full torque at lower motor speeds.

                                        Robert

                                        #850300
                                        Paul Scholey
                                        Participant
                                          @paulscholey17560

                                          Thank you for your reply’s, if I find a lathe with a two speed motor would it be easier to change the 3 phase motor ( I have some taken off machines) for a single speed one and use the variable speed on the VFD ? I don’t know if Harrison M300 and M250 have two speed motors ? I know a Colchester Bantam did I looked at, that’s why I didn’t buy it

                                          #850319
                                          Julie Ann
                                          Participant
                                            @julieann

                                            My Harrison M300 has a single speed 3-phase motor and is, I think, 4-pole.

                                            Julie

                                            Edit: My M300 has a treadle bar and friction brake. As far as I know it was standard; the parts are listed in the manual in the basic assembly diagrams, not in the optional assemblies.

                                            #850326
                                            Paul Scholey
                                            Participant
                                              @paulscholey17560

                                              Thank you for your help again

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