granville lathe..single or 3 phase???

granville lathe..single or 3 phase???

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  • #816734
    JACK SIDEBOTHAM
    Participant
      @jacksidebotham67303

      Gentlemen,my granville senior lathe is powered by a single phase motor at present,however,l am considering changing to a three phase motor and a vfd,can l ask,is this a good idea or should l stay with my current (sorry!!),set up??,l am afraid l dont really know much about motors etc,jack.

      #816739
      John Hinkley
      Participant
        @johnhinkley26699

        I think that you will find that the majority of respondents will advise that you go the three-phase +vfd route.  I have converted many machines this way, using “cheap” vfds of foreign origin. Only one has broken while in my possession and at about £60 a go, I consider them to be almost consumables. I would encourage you to buy a vfd with the facility to be controlled from an external potentiometer and switches to control speed and motor rotation direction respectively.

        There are, of course, many companies who will supply a plug-and-play system, but at a cost.  I am notoriously “cautious” with money – mine and other peoples.

        John

         

        #816743
        Andrew Crow
        Participant
          @andrewcrow91475

          Hello Jack, I would go with the 3 phase vfd route, basically smoother quieter and more flexible.

          However if your not confident with carrying out the electrical work yourself go down the plug and play route, but as stated by John above it is more costly.

          Andy.

          #816751
          Diogenes
          Participant
            @diogenes

            What’s the issue with the motor you have?

            #816754
            Bazyle
            Participant
              @bazyle

              A plug an play VFD & motor could cost more than the lathe is worth. Do you use it enough to justify the saving of a few minutes changing pulleys that has worked for 50 years? Outside of sentimental attachment to the lathe look into whether it is better to sell the lathe and combine the available resources into a newer machine with the improved features already.

              #816757
              SillyOldDuffer
              Moderator
                @sillyoldduffer

                Three-phase or brushless is the answer, but I would only do it after the single-phase motor has failed, unless there’s an urgent need for speed control.  Though 3-phase is preferred, single-phase motors do a reasonable job.

                Why do you want to upgrade?   If for theoretical reasons,  I’d save the money for a rainy day.   If the reason is practical, go for it full ahead!   You get speed control, more torque and a smoother more responsive lathe.  The number of belt changes needed will be much reduced.   Finish should improve too, though I doubt it makes an obvious difference.

                As far as I know, no 3-phase convert has ever regretted it.  At least once it’s working – have to get the wiring right, and some manuals are hard work.

                Dave

                 

                #816762
                noel shelley
                Participant
                  @noelshelley55608

                  If you have unlimited supplies of money change it ! If there is nothing wrong with the one you have keep it ! Belts or gears will multiply torque and so slow speeds will give greater torque A slow running motor on a VFD will NOT !

                  NO I would not change it, especially a plug and play, the cost and the benefit will not stack up. Noel.

                  #817208
                  JACK SIDEBOTHAM
                  Participant
                    @jacksidebotham67303

                    ok gentlemen,thank you all for your replies,l have decided to stay with a single phase motor and a drum switch,but l intend to upgrade to either a 3/4 hp or a 1 hp motor,the motor l have at present is a 1/3rd hp,so the extra power will be welcome,although it occurs to me that running a 3 step pulley on the motor and another on the line shaft would give me an even greater range of speeds allbe it requiring extra belt changing,anyone have any thoughts on that??,cheers,jack.

                    #817228
                    parovoz
                    Participant
                      @parovoz

                      A multistep motor pulley can be useful, Myford Super 7’s have that, as long as the top speed is within the capability of the motor power, the lathe structure and more importantly the chuck’s used.

                      Many moons ago as a kid I rebuilt a Drummond round bed and made the drive mechanism. I had no backgear so had to have a wide range of speeds to get the slow end and it ended up as a 32 speed lathe with a maximum spindle speed in the thousands of RPM domain ( can’t remember the figure now, but I did calculate all the speeds at the time ). Needles to say I NEVER attempted to run the machine at the theoretical maximum speed, that would have just been silly ! 🙂

                      Regards.

                      #817230
                      SillyOldDuffer
                      Moderator
                        @sillyoldduffer

                        Jack, I’d assumed your Granville was already fitted with speed control.  Is that not the case?

                        If the lathe only has a 1/3HP driving the spindle via a single pulley pair, without speed control, then it will only work properly over a somewhat narrow range.   Rule of thumb, cutting mild-steel, a 10mm diameter rod should be turned at about 1000rpm, whilst 100mm diameter should be run at about 100rpm.  Divide by 2 for hard cast-iron, multiply by 2 for Brass.    And threading needs very low speeds, say 15rpm.  When a wide speed range is needed, simply increasing the power of the motor isn’t a good answer.  Some form of speed control is needed.  Just as a car needs a gearbox.

                        Options, add:

                        • Belt and multiple pulleys.   This is the traditional method.  A single speed motor drives a countershaft on which is mounted a 3-step pulley, paired with similar on the headstock.   Good description here on lathes.co.uk.   Main disadvantage is that constantly shifting the belt can be a serious time-waster.  Also, only a limited number of fixed speeds are available, but that’s unlikely to be troublesome unless carbide is in play.
                        • Motor (not single-phase) with electronic speed control.  This is the modern approach, often coupled with a simple 2-step pulley providing a slow and fast range.  Slow range covers from about 15 to 250rpm, fast from 250 to 2500rpm.   Rarely necessary to shift the belt, though it can be a nuisance, and speed can be varied precisely to suit the job just by twiddling a knob.
                        • On older machines, do both!  Change the motor from single-phase to 3-phase, and keep the pulleys.  However, belt changes are minimised because most work can be done on one pulley setting, whilst the electronics change speed over a wide range.  (Modern electronics are much better at maintaining low speed torque than Noel imagines, but if you need more, the belt can be moved.)

                        Which model Granville do you have?  They vary from pre-war simplistic designs to post-war sophisticated.  A 1/3HP motor and talk of pulleys suggests an older design.

                        What’s the actual problem?  Is it that the lathe doesn’t cut properly with the existing motor?  That’s not surprising if the spindle can only be spun at one speed.  If so, the question may be “what’s the best way of providing speed control?”, rather than “single or 3 phase???”.

                        Apologies if my analysis is wrong – I’m joining the dots!

                        Dave

                         

                        #817264
                        duncan webster 1
                        Participant
                          @duncanwebster1

                          The Granville is so similar to an ML7 you’d be well advised to copy what Mr Myford did. I built a 5″ g loco on an ML7 with a 1/4 hp single phase motor no problem. Standard on ml7 was 1/3 hp.

                          #817275
                          Diogenes
                          Participant
                            @diogenes

                            ^^yes this^^

                            ..1/3rd hp is perfectly adequate – the step-down gearing needed to reduce the motor speed in the slow/medium ranges multiplies the available torque which is what is needed for turning larger diameters, and in the high range the smaller diameter of work requires less power to machine.

                            1/3hp rated motor was a common ‘spec. for the ML.

                             

                             

                            #817282
                            Robert Atkinson 2
                            Participant
                              @robertatkinson2

                              If you are changing the motor regardless then go for 3 phase and aa VFD.
                              You can still change drive belt ratios if you want so the “low speed power” argument is spurious.
                              3 phase is much smoother quierter and speed does not vary with load either. You don’t need as big a motor either. I fitted a 0.37kW (0.5 HP), 910rpm, 230/400V, 3 Phase, 50Hz, B3 foot mounted motor to my ML7 with a slightly bigger pulley and it is excellent. The reduction in vibration is significant as ther is much less torque ripple. Stopping and starting is easier too no clutch needed.
                              Note the low speed of the motor, it is a 6 pole. The larger motor pulley reduces stress and losses in the high speed belt. A 4 pole is the minimum you should use.
                              I don’t like the no-name VFDs on safety and interference grounds so bought a used branded VFD.  Likewise the brushless DC “sewing machine” motors.

                              Robert.

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