How much ???

This topic has 29 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 23 October 2011 at 11:10 by Richard Parsons.

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13 October 2011 at 09:40 #76180
Eric Cox
Participant
@ericcox50497
When looking through ME for that next project, one thing that is missing from articles is an approximation of build cost.

Having a limited budget the last thing I want to do is start a project and then find out I’ve got to fork out X pounds for castings or a boiler etc.

Could authors of bespoke projects give an indication of build cost somewhere in the article.
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13 October 2011 at 09:40 #5698
Eric Cox
Participant
@ericcox50497
13 October 2011 at 09:44 #76181
Terry Lane
Participant
@terrylane
I should think that that would be a very difficult thing to do – given the wide price fluctuations we see these days. Not only that but many of us ‘archive’ these projects and may not start until several years after publication, rendering any estimate invalid.
13 October 2011 at 10:35 #76184
Laurence B
Participant
@laurenceb
As Tel says,this might be a difficult thing to do,and then we model engineers would probably moan even more when the actual costs came in above budget,allowing for inflation etc.

Model engineering,in my recollection has never exactly been a cheap hobby,and I think we should bear that in mind when thinking of embarking on some new project.
13 October 2011 at 10:57 #76185
ady
Participant
@ady
A definitive list of everything you will need to build a particular project should give even a new user a reasonable idea of what costs are involved
13 October 2011 at 11:26 #76187
Gordon W
Participant
@gordonw
I’ve often thought that a materials list would be a good thing, not a full, technical, list, but the larger bits, any castings, special or hard to get stuff, etc.. This would also give a chance to gather and “aquire ” stuff in advance.
13 October 2011 at 12:15 #76188
Weldsol
Participant
@weldsol
I think a general materials list would be a good idea to generate outline cost , but to add to that you must also take into account what tooling you may have to purchase

i.e. drills / taps and that odd size endmill that you have not got it all adds to the cost

Paul
13 October 2011 at 16:41 #76194
SteveW
Participant
@stevew54046
What is NOT helpful is articles that say ‘I used a huge chunk of brass given to me by a friend’ or ‘I found this in the scrap box’.

I don’t have friends with secret supplies of brass or a scrap box with that size in it. Some projects are very expensive if you source material all as new – just like a beginner would have to do.

So an idea of cost would be a help even if not perfect.

SteveW
13 October 2011 at 16:44 #76195
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
But would we all want the first 10-20 pages of a new build series taken up with a list of materials?

Just as an example Stew Hart’s overcrank had 2 1/3 pages given over to the list of parts, how long would that list be if it were say the Darjeeling or a similarly large project.

There is also the fact that the builder may have used what was to hand so pricing up could be difficult. What about nuts and bolts you may only need two of something which some may have already but others may need to buy in packs of 10 or even 50 what cost goes in the mag, that of the two or the whole pack of 50?

J
13 October 2011 at 17:45 #76198
SteveW
Participant
@stevew54046
I thought we were trying to help a beginner? Anyone who is going to start on a locomotive will probably not really need a complete list. Even so an ideal of the castings cost may be useful. I’m usually shocked anyway!

Perhaps a list (if available) could be on the website?

SteveW
13 October 2011 at 21:42 #76220
Gary Brooke
Participant
@garybrooke63895
Hi as a begIner my self I can see how hard it is to cost a project. Does the author make allowances for mistakes and ways off working . Some might use castings whilst somebody with more knowledge might fabricate apart. Over the length of a project costs are spread out.
So start and buy as needed modeling on HP
Regards Gary
13 October 2011 at 21:59 #76223
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
When I started, I made my first, rather strange, concept of a steam engine from bits and bobs – it just worked but fell apart! I then realised to learn real skills it made sense to take the traditional route of a Stuart No10, ‘by the book’. There are few truly complete kits like that, with all the fixings. But do keep alook out for handy lumps of scrap. The pillar on my grinder is from a stub of dural scaff pole I found on a roundabout, other parts came from an old dot matrix printer and a random sheet of 3mm steel found in what is now my workshop when we moved in. I made great use of some steel bar from the base of some old display boards when I was starting out.

If you embark on a big project keep you eyes open for useful lumps, but buy the bits as you go along. Always keep your ‘short ends’ and never be ashamed to peer into scrap bins and bargain boxes.

Sometimes it’s ‘what can I do with this lump’ that inspires a project, not the other way around!

Neil
14 October 2011 at 00:58 #76234
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi, I have been fortunate for many years to be able to pick up odd cut off bits of metal and lumps of useful scraps from my job. I have to agree with Niel somewhat about lumps of metal, scrap of otherwise, and a bit of inspiration.

Below is a couple of pictures of scrap parts, that I have made use of. The first one I used to make a new bit for my Hobbymat lathe, the result can be seen in my Hobbymat Lathe Refurb album. The second one I used to make a replacement gearbox end plate, the result of which can be seen in my Nicks album.

I know not everyone is lucky enough to be able to pick up bits like this, but with a little inspiration, I’m sure a lot of people will come across useful items with usable sized bits and pieces on/inside them. just have a look and think what you might be able to salvage off things before you take them to the recycling centre.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/10/2011 00:59:58
17 October 2011 at 17:21 #76425
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Gordon I agree with you entirely.

I have 5 projects ‘stopped’ for lack of materials One is within for a 250 mm length of steel which I can only buy here in Hungary from Germany –reason zoning- in the UK, France etc I can get it from the U.K. The Germans require my VAT registration number the UK do not need it. I think the message has not gotten through.

Projects 2&3 are waiting for about 150mm of 3mm steel. I bought all my local supplier stock (5 meters) about 3 years ago. I went to the cashier and paid for it. I spotted the packing ‘Gorilla’ coiling it up for me when I yelled ‘NEM’ the (Hungarian for no) he took no notice and squeezing the end up and twisted it like a coiled bootlace. I chucked it on the floor and walked out. The Gorilla chased me with it shouting and brandishing it and a length of 50mm bar. I hopped on my scooter and lit out like a jack rabbit dogging through the gate before the Gate Goon could close it.

Project 4 is waiting for a bearing. The Hungarians have found the idea of ‘Minimum Order quantity and I can only buy a full pack of 50 of them.

Project 5 (to cast and build a ‘Box Plainer’is shelved for the same reason I can only buy 50 x 2 litre cans (These are packed in 4s). Work it out for yourself they have to ‘break bulk’.

I am now waiting for two more items of information before I start to cut metal, the crank shaft OD and the Cylinder max OD and length. This is for the 5cc CI engine in ME. I have the rest in a metal box locked and well hidden.
17 October 2011 at 17:47 #76426
David Littlewood
Participant
@davidlittlewood51847
Richard,

I must admit your post surprised me. I have no personal knowledge of Hungary, but… I can’t understand why the usual UK suppliers of material to us MEs could not deliver to Hungary. Indeed, for this to be prohibited by any national law would be a breach of the fundamental EU principle requiring “free movement of goods, people and capital”. And as to why a German company would “require” a VAT number from a (presumably) non-trading private citizen is incomprehensible (mind you, much of what passes for logic in that country is similarly incomprehensible). Surely you could find some way round these artificial barriers?

David
18 October 2011 at 11:34 #76470
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Many companies have divided Europe into ‘Zones’ for distribution purposes. The German distributers very often do sell direct to the public, they only supply ‘companies’. Their systems are designed to do this. Other companies will not allow distributors to ‘poach’ on another distributor’s territory.
I cannot get inch size bearings from the U.K. and they are on ‘special order’ in Hungary (MOQs of up to 100 pieces) only if the Hungarian dealership can be bothered to order them. Hungarians always have 10,000 reasons ‘why not’. The most significant is the word ‘Too’, as in “Too late”, “Too early” etc. The U.K. distributers who can supply inch sizes (ex-stock) are not allowed to sell them to me despite the unwillingness of the local supplier’s to do so.

Some retail suppliers will ship anywhere but the problem is you order 3mm round stock they send 1/8” etc.

There is another reason for ‘Zoning’ which is quality assurance and local consumer protection laws. In Western Europe Consumer Protection laws are very strict and often stringently applied. Other places this is not the case. Locally even European Directives are ignored. We are in ‘Hungary not Brussels’! As you know appliances are ‘graded’ during production. Those that are ‘first rate’ are sold in the West. Those that are not so perfect are sold elsewhere and those that only just work are often sold in Hungary. Two years ago I bought a small compressor. It came straight from the box. It was tried and I found that a notice sticker started to bulge on the air receiver. I switched it off and returned it the same day as I bought it. It has taken two years to get the thing replaced. The importer welded up the crack in the air receiver. I refused the repair as I wanted a new receiver and the weld was not done by a qualified coded welder. They tested it whilst I was elsewhere in the company’s buffet. I heard a loud phut the air receiver had peeled open like a banana. Because of the E-mails I sent, I got a new one shipped to by the manufacturer from Taiwan. The ordinary Hungarian would have got nowhere.
18 October 2011 at 12:06 #76472
Ian Parkin
Participant
@ianparkin39383
Richard

Do you have a friend in the uk that can buy the bits for you and send them on?

I would be happy to oblige

Or can I not post anything on to you because of rules?

Ian
18 October 2011 at 19:55 #76488
Keith Wardill 1
Participant
@keithwardill1
I support Richard Parsons comments completely – I live in Romania, and have the same problems he describes. It is not even possible to buy a small piece of chipboard here (OK – I know its not engineering, but it is illustrative) – if I want some chipboard, I have to buy the whole sheet 250cms x 120cms – bulk-buying rules here!

Richard has also not mentioned postal cost issues – I have mentioned this in other threads. Postal costs quoted by suppliers in UK to this part of the world are scandalous. I have been quoted over 30 pounds for a 1kg package from the supplier – my brother eventually sent it – uninsured – for a fiver, but of course loss or damage is a risk. Yet I regularly order items from Germany, and the postal costs are extremely reasonable. One company I ordered from sent a 30 Euro order, with a postal cost of just over 4 Euros by courier to me in Romania, but the courier company wrongly charged me 50 Lei (about 10 Euros) for delivering it. I mentioned this to the company, and they promptly refunded the money to me at their expense – makes the UK look a bit sick.

The other side of the coin is that I know of a metal supplier here in Arad, where I can get many things I cannot source in any ‘civilized’ western European country (or not easily), and sometimes the prices are crazy – I can get sheets of copper 1×2 metres up to about 2mm thick, for next to nothing. Steel or S/S bar and rod in nay size or cross-section is no problem, large pieces of brass, and so on. Yet I cannot get copper rivets for anything, so I buy copper rod (in large bundles) and make my own rivets. Silver solder is a complete mystery to Romanians – I have been offered silver rod (also at a very reasonable price – less than the cost of silver solder in UK ) because thats what they thought I meant.

As Richard says, a materials list would be useful – you don’t just start a project (at least here), without considerable forethought.
18 October 2011 at 20:03 #76491
Keith Wardill 1
Participant
@keithwardill1
After re-reading the thread – just another comment – as|Richard emphasizes, this is Hungary (or Romania in my case). It may well be EU, but corruption rules here – there is no way to get EU rules of any kind supported for the benefit of the common man. I draw your attention to the newspaper allegations at this time (18 October) about a Romanian judge on the EC Human Rights Court using his powers to prevent an investigation into his wifes corrupt activities, so the average consumer has few rights here. That said, not all East Europeans are corrupt – we have had some good experiences.
19 October 2011 at 10:58 #76501
Lawrie Alush-Jaggs
Participant
@lawriealush-jaggs50843
I thought that one of the things we learned as we grew up was how to price things. Certainly in the workshop, you draw up your plans and then see what bits you have available and which parts you need to buy. That goes for materials and tooling. If you can afford you do it, if you can’t you don’t.

I don’t think that at our end of engineering costing the job is the province of the writer of the article. It may be fine for recipes one gets in magazines at the supermarket, but not the amateurs workshop.
19 October 2011 at 13:27 #76504
Bogstandard
Participant
@bogstandard
How difficult would it be for someone to say, overall cost, roughly £260 or £470?

There are plenty of arguments for NOT quoting figures, but what is wrong with quoting a rough guesstimate. Surely you know a rough cost of what you have done and how much it cost you to do.

I personally think it is a very good idea, if the rough cost was shown fairly early on, I might not have to read through the whole lot before kicking it into touch.

John
19 October 2011 at 13:38 #76505
Hugh Gilhespie
Participant
@hughgilhespie56163
Hmmm, construction costs of one simple beam engine?
Well, materials around £100, equipment, say £3000, tooling, at least another grand……and so on, so say roughly £4000!
Mind you, the next one will be loads cheaper – almost half in fact!
And how do you put a value on all the fun you have.
Regards
Hugh
19 October 2011 at 15:03 #76507
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Ian Parkin Thank you very much Ian for your kind offer. My daughter and my son in law live in ‘Blighty’ so I have no real problem in that direction.
I wrote (incorrectly) The German distributers very often do sell direct to the public, they only supply ‘companies’. Their systems are designed to do this. It should have read that ‘German suppliers often do not sell direct to the public’ etc

Wotsit, No I did not mention U.K. postal costs which are horrendous and often wrongly charged by the GPO. If the supplier is using a delivery service then they have a minimum parcel weight of 20Kgs . Up to 20Kg you pay for 20Kg. One of the reasons is the “1 tone or 20 cubic feet” pricing inherited from the shipping cargo trade. The other is the business of ‘airline security’ etc. I have used ‘Cab freight’ I pay the driver to pick up a package and carry it in the lorry cab, but it is tricky.

Most of the wood yards in Hungary do not have any saws so they can only sell by the board length. I do not know if you have a copy of ‘Beau-Max’ in Arad. If so have a look. My local one has a glass cutting service and a small saw mill unit. The prices are high but if you want a small amount it is cheaper than buying the whole board.

Silver solder I buy it here under the English description of ‘low temperature brazing spelter’. It comes in 1/8” diameter and is covered in flux. It is not cheap but it melts at about the temperature of ‘Easy-Flow 2. If you want a bit P.M. me I will see what my supplier can do.’

My big complaint is about the use of ‘local distributers’ and Zoning. Within the Zone the local distributor has a monopoly.

Regds

Dick
19 October 2011 at 19:06 #76520
Keith Wardill 1
Participant
@keithwardill1
Hi, Richard,

We don’t have Beau-max in Arad, but we do have several large DIY warehouses of German origin (Obi, Praktiker). These are identical in layout and services to the German ones (I lived in Germany for 25 years), right down to the cutting equipment installed in the wood departments. Both stores will (sometimes) cut the wood to size for you (depends on which employee is on duty that day) – this is still a risky business – Romanian millimetres seem to be elastic compared to those on my ruler, so it is safer to specify the sizes as bigger than actually required. The clincher comes after they have cut it – you still have to pay for the whole sheet!. I found this out very shortly after I arrived here. Buying the whole sheet was not that expensive, but it was a b….r to get home, and I wasn’t going to leave two thirds of the sheet in the store! – it explains why nearly everyone I know around here has a circular saw

Buying planed ‘dry’ timber is even more difficult – you have to get an itemised receipt of what you bought – not a till receipt – they usually have to be written out in longhand by one specific employee (which can be a bit like the old joke of being sent for a long wait). Apparently this is to protect you and the shop in the event the police stop you on the way home – then you can ‘prove’ you bought the timber legitimately instead of stealing it. Green (highly suitable for warping) timber does not need this receipt – go figure!. Needless to say, they don’t sell much timber.

My experiences with UK postal charges have originated with the suppliers – I have had some really crazy quotes to send to Europe, compared with the same companies shipping within UK, so I get them to send it to my brother, who then trots down the local post office, and sends it simple parcel post – it has always so far worked out much cheaper – so my gripe is with the suppliers. When I have queried their prices, I have been told ‘It is for post and PACKING, sir – we have to make sure it is packed OK and isn’t damaged in transit’, so some packing can cost a fortune, it appears (…..but not when sent from Germany, it seems). Perhaps someone in business can justify this?

It is also possible to buy various solders here made by a German company called Rolot (I think they also sell in UK). They have many different types, for plumbing and other purposes, and there are several which are marketed under similar descriptions as you mention. The packages usually state the intended use, and give things like melting temperatures, but I have to say I have never had much luck with them – there does not seem to be anything with the characteristics of Easyflow. I did find one which appeared to melt at the same temperature as Easyflow, covered with a very pale yellow flux. I finally did get it to melt using an oxy/gas flame, but no way will it run into a joint – it looks like the legendary chickensh*t produced by novice welders. I usually end up ordering from a model supply company in Germany. Thanks for your kind offer – OK at the moment, but later would be good. If there is anything you think I might get around here for you, please e-mail.

For sure people in the UK don’t know when they have a good deal!
19 October 2011 at 20:28 #76522
michael howarth 1
Participant
@michaelhowarth1
The UK Postage and Packing industry is one of my hobbyhorses. As my daughter lives in Australia, the benchmark I use is the Post Office parcel rate to Oz which currently stands at around £6 per 500gm and usually delivered within 7 days. I don’t like paying that rate but it is a bargain when compared with some UK suppliers who quite shamefacedly will charge a similar amount for a small itemdelivered in a jiffy bag and a 90p stamp. As far as possible I prefer to deal with those suppliers whose catalogue price includes p&p.
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