Silver soldering

Silver soldering

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  • #126077
    MK
    Participant
      @mk72051

      Hi all,

      I am a newbie here and like to ask a few questions about silver soldering.

      I have recieved a 3.5" TICH from a club that I am now building and now I need to get silver solder for the boiler.

      I know that Silverflo 45/55 is the best to use but it is expensive. I have found another company that manufactures silver solder and they have 4o% silver solder. The alloy is: Ag40Sn and Ag40Cd.

      It will cost me R741/ $74 plus postage for 100g

      At Afrox the Silverflo 45 costs R880/ $88 for 100g ( no postage costs, it is around the corner)

      Which one will be best?

      Cheers!

      Marinus Krugerr

      #22748
      MK
      Participant
        @mk72051
        #126120
        Sub Mandrel
        Participant
          @submandrel

          Ag40Cd sounds like easyflo to me, if it is this cadmium based alloy it will probably be the best. They don't sell it in the UK anymore because of the fumes – work outside!

          Neil

          #126137
          MK
          Participant
            @mk72051

            Thanks for the reply Neil. I have read that cadmium based silver solder flows better, but will it fill a 0.8mm gap?

            Marinus Kruger

            #126149
            Sub Mandrel
            Participant
              @submandrel

              No,. sorry. 0.8mm is too wide for any silver solder to fill reliably. As its a copper boiler can you distort slightly to narrow the gap?

              Neil

              #126155
              MK
              Participant
                @mk72051

                Thank you for the reply Neil and John.

                It is the dome bush that has gaps on the sides. You can see that light goes through, ( Don't have a step drill bit, so I used a dremel and now it has about 0.25mm gap between the OD and the ID of the hole in the boiler shell. Will it work if I buy about 2 rods of Ag40Sn extra to fill the bigger gaps?

                Cheers

                Marinus Kruger

                #126156
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  Probably cheaper to turn a new bush than try to fill it with two sticks of solder most of which will just drop out of the gap. And a better job all round.

                  Edited By JasonB on 04/08/2013 13:23:27

                  #126161
                  MICHAEL WILLIAMS
                  Participant
                    @michaelwilliams41215

                    Hi Mk ,

                    Jason is certainly giving you good advice – make a new bush .

                    I've made one Tich boiler and helped with several others.

                    Here are a few notes on problems that can arise and how to get around them :

                    (1) When boilers are being silver soldered it is very easy for parts to become loose under heat . They then move randomly and boiler will need remedial work which is not usually very easy . Best to prevent problems by using simple mechanical fixings between parts . Many methods but a few same metal screws or rivets , peened over tabs or plate edges or sometimes just upstanding pop marks will all work depending on parts and location .

                    (2) The dome bush is not very well designed and a particularly sound silver soldered joint with a little fillet is called for . A way of doing this is to make dome bush sized so as to be an almost precision fit in the boiler shell hole – that is bush will go in easily but with not more than a couple of thou radial clearance . To hold in place while silver soldering either make a little through bolt clamp or use two tiny rivets fore and aft on bush ( located on top C/L of boiler ) .

                    Some people file tiny nicks in the hole in boiler shell to encourage solder flow to inside of joint .

                    (3) It is possible to have too good a fit between parts . Make for instance the backhead just an easy fit rather than any sort of press fit . A few pop marks around flange are again useful to maintain an even gap for silver soldering

                    (4) At several locations it is easier to preplace silver solder than feed in rod . Smokebox tubeplate and tube ends are good examples – sized rings just tight enough fit in/on work to stay put initially while flux melts work well .

                    Regards ,

                    MikeW

                    Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 04/08/2013 14:51:57

                    #126481
                    MK
                    Participant
                      @mk72051

                      Hi Jason and Mike…… The bush is a casting that has been turned by the previous owner and I don't have all of the phos. bronze bar to make the other bushings.

                      Hi Mike….. yes I will make a clamp to hold the bushing in place for silver soldering. The bush doesn't actually move in the shell, it is just a spot that is "oval" and there for I was unsure if it will fill. I think it will close the "oval" gap.

                      Here is a pic of where Stew (sbwhart) silver soldered a bush to a boiler:

                      **LINK**

                      This is the same type of thing I amtalking about, will it flow thick or will it just flow away?

                      I am going to look around for some thin steel sheet that I can use for a brazing hearth and some firebricks and/or

                      Just bought 100g of Ag40Cd and waiting for it's arrival.

                      Thank you all for the advice.

                      Kindest regards

                      Marinus Kruger

                      #126498
                      Keith Hale
                      Participant
                        @keithhale68713

                        Hi Marinus,

                        Cadmium free alloys eg Ag40Sn are generally better for gap filling properties because of the wider melting range 650 – 710 degrees and require more heat. It won't cope with 0.8mm though! Max 0.2mm.

                        A cheaper option is to use 38% silver alloy Ag38Sn

                        The down side is they are not as free flowing and have higher melting temperatures. Ag40Cd is 595 – 630 degrees.

                        For good all round advice re silver soldering go to http://www.cupalloys.co.uk.

                        Go to "Best Brazing Practice" under Introduction to Brazing. There are also tips which include how to make your rings to size first time! Download it for a handy reference file.

                        Re your firebricks. Do not use conventional bricks or those taken from storage heaters. They ABSORB heat making brazing more difficult. Use lightweight refractory bricks

                        Incidentally, in this instance, it is cheaper to buy the silver solder ex stock in the UK and pay postage!

                        Regards

                        keith

                        #126502
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133

                          That's an excellent guide, Keith

                          Thanks

                          MichaelG.

                          #126505
                          MK
                          Participant
                            @mk72051

                            Thanks for the reply Keith.

                            The thing is that I'm here in South Africa and the parcels often get intercepted if from the UK (like my live steam pressure guage). One 1.5mm x 600mm rod of Ag40Cd/ Ag40Sn costs about £3/ $4.5/ R45.

                            100g of Ag40Cd/Ag40Sn costs £60/ $74/ R740 plus postage ( £8/ $10/ R100)

                            Kindest regards

                            Marinus Kruger

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