Sparkies advice please

[WorkshopPeteParticipant @workshoppete]

Hi All

I served my time in and around shipyards installing and starting up early navigation equipment Radar, Echo Sounders, Gyros etc. You found electricians fell into three categories those who ran pipe, tray plate or trunking and that was all they did. The next level was those who pulled in the cables and tied the ends to the equipment. the final category was the elite who spent their time getting everything to work normally a squad of half a dozen people. All called themselves electricians but really there was only one squad who were electricians. As someone once said everybody achieves their own level of incompetence.

Peter

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Do not forget the Maintenance Electricians, they were usually left to repair all and any problems.

Edited By V8Eng on 24/05/2015 19:14:26

[Bob JeppParticipant @bobjepp]

I design and install industrial robot systems and have done so since the fourth year of my apprenticeship ( 40 years ago ). I don't have a qualification which allows me to perform domestic electrical installations.

Some of the installations carried out by "professional" electricians leave a lot to be desired – I've had electric shocks from some of them !

I guess that we should understand that the requirement of Part P is to bring all new installations up to a level playing field. This attempts to ensure that electrical installations are carried out to an acceptable standard by competent electricians ( it also attempts to ensure that sufficient tests are carried out to weed out those electricians who are less competent or who cut corners ).

As is normal with all types of legislation, there are always numerous ways to interpret the script ( heaven knows, I have battled with Health and Safety legislation for 40 years ! ) – this means that there is always a mass of points of conjecture.

Where – oh – where does one go to get a definitive answer to ones questions – there are far too many experts around, and they never agree !

[Johnboy25Participant @johnboy25]

I totally agree Bob… 

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

I spent 22 years as a spark (initially loved it, then grew to hate it)

It does cause me considerable wry amusement with the drama and curfuffle created each time someone asks about wiring out a workshop with many going totally OTT.

In most cases we are talking about nothing more than a handful of sockets and a few lights, not the control room of a NASA launch pad.

The best qualification a spark (or any trade) can possess in common sense. Use it and the job will be fine. If you have not got common sense then you really should not be using a lathe or milling machine as they have far more potential to upset your day.

Stop being drama queens (some of you) and advising spending far more of someone else's money than they perhaps need to for a 'hobby shop'.

OK grumpy blokes rant over.! (it's early and I have a creeping hangover just starting)

Nick

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

Thomas … the only person who has seen your premises is your local electrician … if he suggests lifting the floorboards then it is probably a good idea … chipboard flooring is messier than floorboards `cos it makes a bigger hole … if they are nailed down it is a bit daunting to find out what is underneath … he will make a calculated guess as to where is safe to start hacking everything out … hopefully he would avoid radiator pipes and wall sockets etc … go with his idea but with one difference … YOU lift the flooring … find a clear space near a wall but clear of any nails … gently hack a hole in the chipboard … most flooring is somewhere around 3/4 inch or 18 mm thick … do not go any deeper with a drill until you can check with a torch and a small mirror … his cable ( s ) will either end up running along the joists or crossing all of them ( sod`s law )

Either lift a huge piece of chipboard or slice through the board with a circular saw set to exact depth … if you are lucky and your cable runs along the joists then the edge of the joist can be reinforced with a piece of 50 x 25 timber well screwed to the side of the joist along its length … I have been using that method for decades and so far no-one has fallen through the floor … if you know anyone who is a joiner or a DIY person check with them if they agree with me or suggest a bigger piece of timber ??

Your electrician would probably nail the flooring back down, if YOU do it you can SCREW them down, then the flooring stops being a barrier and turns into an access panel … next step would be to go and buy a sheet of flooring chipboard and a length of timber from the local builders merchant … doing it yourself should also save a bit of money.

There is only one awkward problem, and that may be SWMBO … she will not be happy … I have been trying to solve this problem for 44 very pleasant years … try flowers, chocs, mow the grass, wash the pots … I can crawl with the best of them !! if the flooring crosses a bedroom possibly you would move the bed and wardrobes … get the vacuum cleaner ready … who knows what you may find !!!

This problem is far more important than the cable size !! if the electrician says a ring main extension or a single cable, maybe 10 or 16 mm, then do it … life is too short !!

Keep the peace and keep it simple.

martin

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

OK you lot, here goes:

Why not run the cable through the roof space?

Had to do that when a new condensing boiler unit was fitted.

It only needed conduit form boiler into the roof space, and then the same at the other end into the Garage where our CU is.

Geoff – Waiting for the volcanic reaction

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Geoff,

I ran my garage feed via the loft but I live in a bungalow with the garage/workshop attached, ran a 10mm feed in twin and earth from the CU in hall total run about 10 meters. I think it's a case of selecting the easiest route that causes least disruption. Under floor is probably going to cause most disruption as it will probably mean not only lifting floorboards but also floor covering also chipboard floors are a pain. Up into roof space assumes the building and garage are both single story if the cable needs to go out doors at any point it will need protection. Run external probably causes least disruption and holes through walls are easy with a SDS drill.

I went for 10mm cable as I do not intend to be in the position where the cable is too small supply breaker 32amp but cable capable of 45amp.

Bob

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

My workshop supply is fed from the switch board in the house, up to the roof space then fed out under the eaves, then supported by a length of multy-strand galvanised steel wire for the 2 metres to the workshop switch board.

Ian S C

[Thomas GudeParticipant @thomasgude37285]

Hello All,

Thank you for the masses of replies, most welcome.

A few of updates/replies:

– I checked and the double socket definitely runs off a single spur of the bottom floor ring main. Extending the ring is a possibility but it's not ideal.
– Consumer unit is MCB type with an RCD protection – there are two ring mains, two lighting circuits (upstairs and downstairs for both) and the rest are for water heaters, oven and smoke alarms. There are plenty of blanked off spaces to add more MCBs if I wished.
– Laying under the floorboards – I completely get why this seems to be the best option. It would mean, however, having to practically move out as it would necessitate moving almost every piece of furniture upstairs! (its a small house)
– If there were any way of laying under the ground floor carpet this would be far more ideal as it is a much more direct route with no obstacles. How you lay a cable into a solid cement floor however is beyond me and it probably won't meet regs if the supply is coming up from ground level in the workshop.
– I don't think going through the roof would help much
– SWMBO factor – if we do end up going under the floorboards we could get that power shower she's been nagging me for as it would have to go right past the bathroom (I feel a plan developing!)

I have a much better idea of what is entailed in getting the supply across the house now, especially if it's running outside, so thanks. I think it is time to call a (hopefully friendly) electrician!

Thomas

[Graham WhartonParticipant @grahamwharton]

Thomas, please get a qualified sparky in to give you a quote. Pay lots of attention and ask him the right questions when he gives you the quote. Even if you're not going to get him to do the job, you should ask him questions and listen to his advice when he quotes you on what you will need.

Plenty of people have been quick to give you advice , but none of the them have been armed with enough information to design the installation you are planning.

You've beed advised to use a range of cable sizes, but nobody knows how long the cable run is.

You've been told to install an earth rod for your workshop and connect that to the house earth without checking what sort of earthing arrangement your house is on. On certain installation types what you have been advised to do may be prohibited by some power supply companies with good reason.

You've been told to install a 1.5mm2 ring main on a 16A breaker but this is not compliant with current wiring regulations and won't get signed off.

Nobody has asked how far away from the house the workshop is.

Nobody has asked if you have a water supply to your workshop fed from the house in conductive pipes buried in the ground or has said anything about earth bonding, or the equipotential zone.

Nobody has said anything about your earth loop impedence of your house supply or how that earth is supplied (TT, TNCS PME etc).

Then theres making sure youre going to meet the disconnection times for your RCDs……

There are plenty of other things you need to consider too, expecially if you are planning on getting a sparky to come and sign it off as compliant with the regulations at the end of it.

No offence intended to the well meaning people on this forum, but if you're intending on getting a sparky in to do the work, then the best person to make the sorts of decisions and answer the questions you are asking on here, and actually design the installation, is yourself and the sparky who will be signing it off.

Graham

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi Graham, you forgot about Voltage drop depending on size and distance of Conductor,

But very well explained and stated, Thomas Please take note of Graham, it will save you a lot of hassel and probably money as well

[Thomas GudeParticipant @thomasgude37285]

Hi Graham and Trevor,

Yes, of course, you are both absolutely correct. I do not intend to install the supply or CU myself – I only want to do the ring main and lighting after the sparky has installed the supply and new CU to our design and spec. I just hope that I can find one that is willing to do this without getting upset.

Thomas

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Another point to be aware of is not all electricians are equal and just because that's the way they always do some thing does not necessarily make it the only way.

I had a electrician who wanted to cut off the 13amp plug on a Neff induction hob, plug moulded on cable by Neff as he said it did not comply with the regulations and needed a terminal box in the wall with 6mm cable not a 13amp socket. He also said I need a single isolator for the oven and hob not the two I wanted, need less to say he did not get the work.

Bob

[brian goldsmithParticipant @briangoldsmith20924]

Hello Thomas, some good advise from Graham, Trevorh, and Bob. Also ask the Sparky about the best way for you to wire your final circuits in the workshop. Any extra information is always useful.

Regards, Brian.

Edited By brian goldsmith on 27/05/2015 23:53:05

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