Right to Repair

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"One of the nicest ideas for lorries was the concept of a smaller battery for local running and then overhead power on trunk routes – until you have hundreds of such trucks all trying to use the same line at once".

Then perhaps the obvious solution to that would be a railway? Or has that been tried before somewhere and then closed down because it was found to be cheaper to put a train load of goods into a fleet of trucks instead of modernising the Victorian way of shifting things around on the railways that existed right up until the mid-1960's. And yes, I do know that Dr. Beeching did try to introduce containerisation and freight-liner terminals but most these subsequently closed too.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

With regard to reliability, our first new car was a Ford Anglia 1200, followed by a Renault 16TL, in parallel with the last 6TL to be imported into Britain, (BOY! did that thing consume front silencers Designed to rot )

The last cars from a European manufacturer were Renault 5TLs. Drive shaft gaiters and radiators wer consumables.

The replacements were two of the last 2005 MY Toyota Yaris to be sold.

Each successive car seemed to be more economical and reliable (not always durable though )

After 12 years the Yaris,s were traded in for Aygos, having consumed, other than routine servicing, a set of brake pads and a set of tyres; one brake light bulb each..

So far, one Aygo has had a new pair of front tyres, but nothing else, other than servicing,and is amazingly economical on a long run, especially when the ambient temperature is about 20C

BUT, until the %TLs went all the servicing was done by me. Now I have enough kit to equip a small garage, but nothing that calls for its use! But my days o lying on cold concrete to service or repair are long gone.

PROGRESS!

Howard

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Chris Crew on 09/02/2022 15:25:04:

Then perhaps the obvious solution to that would be a railway? Or has that been tried before somewhere and then closed down because it was found to be cheaper to put a train load of goods into a fleet of trucks instead of modernising the Victorian way of shifting things around on the railways that existed right up until the mid-1960's. And yes, I do know that Dr. Beeching did try to introduce containerisation and freight-liner terminals but most these subsequently closed too.

That necessitates loading/off loading the containers or the lorries and depends on timetables hence less flexible. I tend to agree in principle that a cheaper form of transport and less 'just in time' transport has merit. Perhaps put it all back on the canals and really save energy…

pgk

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Hopper on 09/02/2022 10:03:35:

The next generation of electric cars will have quick change battery packs that you just pull into the service station and they yank out the flat battery and drop in a charged one about as quick as filling up a petrol tank, maybe quicker. They are already doing it on long haul electric trucks in Australia, with the battery change stations at the drivers' fatigue break stops. And motorcycle manufacturers are already working on a standard changeable battery pack across all makes and models. Car manufacturers are not far behind doing the same.

But yes, will need a lot of windmills and solar panels to power it. But we are already well on the way with solar in Australia, to the point that power prices are forecast to go down in the very near future and coal power stations are closing down ahead of schedule.

But of course we have the almost limitless space and sunshine for massive solar "farms". And suburban rooftop solar is so ubiquitous it is threatening grid stability with an oversupply of power at times. If only you guys could capture rain power instead of solar!!

Hmm, I don't think so. Cars need custom battery packs due to space constrints. Unless they are all going to look the same. Commercial vehiles aere a different use case.
Do you have any examples of cars with quick-change battery packs?

Robert G8RPI.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

because I assume TESCO doesn't give away electricity for free

Not necessarily the correct assumption ! I don't shop at Tesco, but understand that some supermarkets do offer free charging (at lower rate chargers) for a defined period for users of their stores. And such use may require the use on the particular supermarket's "app" to get it going. From my POV, using the MG 5 as an example (as I have recently been looking into them), an hour on a 3Kw charger would put enough into the battery to cover getting me to and from the store (3Kw @ 3.5 miles per KwH). Not much, admittedly, but better than paying for my own petrol / diesel to get to the store and back ! Given the other "loyaty" enticements that supermarkets employ to gain your repeat custom, why not "give away" a small amount of electricty – is it that much of a difference to a small discount on the bill ?

The current requirement for multiple accounts, apps etc for the many different suppliers has been addressed by a recent govenment edict that all chargers have to be available by use of credit & debit cards at the charger. Still in the "grace" period for compliance IIRC, but a move in the right direction – after all, you don't need separate accounts, apps etc. to use petrol pumps. Kia have a card supplied to purchasers of their EVs that gives access to many different suppliers' chargers with the one card, billed monthly. Works throughout Europe as well, not just UK.

I have previously balked at the range issue for EVs as well – just so used to the "once a week" fill-up taking a few minutes & giving 550 miles to a tankful. As my weekly mileage is around 420 miles, I have range to spare, so a 200-250 mile range car seems inconvenient at best – barely 2 days usage. But you just need a different mindset – rather than the once-a-week fill to cover the week, think "when it is parked, plug it in". I appreciate that this really applies to those who can park near their property & have a charge point installed, but my car sits on the drive for 12 1/2 hours between getting home in an evening to going out again the next morning, so why not have it charging while it sits there ? If I could twist my employers arm to get a point installed at work (my brother has this at his workplace) it could be charging for 9 hours there. Plus an hour at the supermarket etc. – it all adds up. I came across an acronym on one EV forum that sums it up nicely – ABC – "Always Be Charging" !

So, realistically, with a small adjustment to how you "fuel" the vehicle, you come to it every morning / evening with a "full tank" . For probably 85% of my car usage, I don't think I would struggle with a 200 mile range EV – 100 miles a day commute for 4 days + around 20 miles for the weekly shop. It is the other 15% that is holding me back – the longer trips for leisure that would require using the (currently inadequate in my view) public charging network. The NEC is around 140 miles from me, so not possible to do the return journey on a single charge with even a "long range" MG 5. But I would be at the NEC for several hours, so why not "ABC" there ? Well it appears that thoughout their extensive carparks the NEC only have 10 EV charge points scattered about – a bit of a lottery as to if there was a free one when you got there & that it was working (unreliable / faulty chargers seem to be common complaint) & the subsequent "range anxiety" and delays to the return journey trying to find an unoccupied, working charger on the way home. The 400 mile trip to stay with friends in the Highlands would be similarly fraught & as for a touring hoilday abroad ….

Robert – have a read of the link in Hopper's post – seems such a system is being trialled, but the operators of the scheme are suggesting that it won't appeal to private users. It is more aimed at taxis, private hire & delivery vehicles whose batteries won't last a full shift. It isn't one large battery being proposed, but multiple instances of a small, standardised cell.

Probably a better solution to the charging issue than that employed by the Berlin bus network, though – their electric buses can only complete the mornning commute up till lunchtime on a charge & they can't recharge before the afternoon / evening stint. So they have a second fleet of diesel buses for that !

Nigel B.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

A non-profit organisation of which I am chair of finance has been discussing the provision of EV charging points to encourage their use by employees, purely to enhance our 'greenness'

We can ask people to pay which will entail accepting cards or similar, which we don't at present or offer the electricity for free which is OK as the Inland Revenue apparently don't count this as being a benefit in kind.

While free travel will encourage use of EVs what happens if we have more vehicles than chargers, will people need to stop work and move their cars to allow others to charge to make things fair and will the rest of the employees demand a similar perk at some stage? Should we allow access on seniority or on the state of charge of the vehicle so a charge is needed to get home?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 10/02/2022 10:33:57
:…

While free travel will encourage use of EVs what happens if we have more vehicles than chargers, will people need to stop work and move their cars to allow others to charge to make things fair and will the rest of the employees demand a similar perk at some stage? Should we allow access on seniority or on the state of charge of the vehicle so a charge is needed to get home?

Such decisions depend on assorted factors – how many employees, work shifts, car park availability and power supply to the building and affordability.
I'd speculate that a few chargers to start aren't a bad idea. If they become popular then add as many as the available spare capacity will allow. At that point you have to make some decisions – possibly downgrade the charge capacity on each slot from a typical 7KW to 3KW to allow more folk (and points) a little top-up or make that part of the car park pay-to-access rather than swapping out for payable charge points +/- musical cars at lunchtime
Much depends on budget and shape of buildings and property. Large roofed structures really should be covered in solar panels as should any covered parts of car parks.

pgk

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/02/2022 17:44:29:

Posted by Hopper on 09/02/2022 10:03:35:

The next generation of electric cars will have quick change battery packs that you just pull into the service station and they yank out the flat battery and drop in a charged one about as quick as filling up a petrol tank, maybe quicker. They are already doing it on long haul electric trucks in Australia, with the battery change stations at the drivers' fatigue break stops. And motorcycle manufacturers are already working on a standard changeable battery pack across all makes and models. Car manufacturers are not far behind doing the same.

But yes, will need a lot of windmills and solar panels to power it. But we are already well on the way with solar in Australia, to the point that power prices are forecast to go down in the very near future and coal power stations are closing down ahead of schedule.

But of course we have the almost limitless space and sunshine for massive solar "farms". And suburban rooftop solar is so ubiquitous it is threatening grid stability with an oversupply of power at times. If only you guys could capture rain power instead of solar!!

Hmm, I don't think so. Cars need custom battery packs due to space constrints. Unless they are all going to look the same. Commercial vehiles aere a different use case.
Do you have any examples of cars with quick-change battery packs?

Robert G8RPI.

Cars with swappable battery packs:

maybe a potential candidate here;-

New Ecar

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by V8Eng on 10/02/2022 19:56:08:

Cars with swappable battery packs:

maybe a potential candidate here;-

New Ecar

Obviously pure coincidence that this new Nio has outlines that are a fusion of the model S and Porsche Taycan and original model S battery swap as well as access to raw materials to throw 150KW batteries into them. The original Tesla Plaid was supposed to have a 600mile range but got reduced due to practical realities in supply.

If I recall correctly, there is an agreement between some European manufacturers to use a joint electric car chassis design?

pgk

Edited By pgk pgk on 10/02/2022 20:14:48

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Crew on 09/02/2022 15:25:04:

"One of the nicest ideas for lorries was the concept of a smaller battery for local running and then overhead power on trunk routes – until you have hundreds of such trucks all trying to use the same line at once".

Then pecontainerised rhaps the obvious solution to that would be a railway? Or has that been tried before somewhere and then closed down because it was found to be cheaper to put a train load of goods into a fleet of trucks instead of modernising the Victorian way of shifting things around on the railways that existed right up until the mid-1960's. And yes, I do know that Dr. Beeching did try to introduce containerisation and freight-liner terminals but most these subsequently closed too.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the railways make a comeback because things have changed since Dr Beeching's day.

Most movements today are done in standard sized containers freely transferred between ships, lorries and trains: very different from the limited non-standard and primitive methods available sixty years ago. Another big change is the rise of Logistics companies and on-line purchasing. Stuff is moved in bulk between regional hubs and transshipped to vans for local delivery. Not a major change for inter-regional links to be done by containerised rail rather than containerised road.

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

On swappable batteries, unless there is a common design thre will either never be enough stations for some models or the stations will have to stock different types. And as mentioned there are issues with ownership, life and warranty. When batteries were so expensive thry were leased it might have been an option.

On Nick Clarke 3's question on chargers. If its for employees who are on site for several hours, don't install "chargers". Instead provide 13A (16A in europe) outlets and let the car owners use their 3kW "granny" chargers. You don't need a fast charge if you are parked all day. A 8 hour charge will give at least 50 mile range even on larger cars. This is enough for most commutes. A twin RCD protected 13A socket will serve two spaces and cost a lot less than a 32A 7kW charger that will only supply one car.

Robert G8RPI.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

If its for employees who are on site for several hours, don't install "chargers". Instead provide 13A (16A in europe) outlets and let the car owners use their 3kW "granny" chargers.

There are grants available to contribute to the installation of dedicated charge points – I doubt they would apply to 13A sockets. AC charge points can be 3 or 7KW in single phase, so a similar limit on electric costs could be achieved using 3 KW charge points.

AC charge points are not chargers – the actual AC charger is built in to the car. There is a basic communication between the charge point & the car when it is connected that informs the car of the capacity of the charge point, the car charger configures to suit the capacity then the a contactor in the charge point connects mains to the car. The "granny" chargers are not chargers either, just a mobile version of the hard wired charge point that communicates a lower supply capacity to the car.

Only DC "Rapid chargers" are actually stand-alone chargers – they connect to the car battery directly via a different socket, bypassing the built-in AC charger.

The grants scheme for installing charge points changes at the end of March (owners of individual properties no longer eligable for grants after the end of March) & the capability requirements of the charge points changes later in the year (June / July IIRC), so further investigation required before committing to an installation. A reputable, registered installer should be able to advise.

If you do go ahead with a public charge point installation perhaps consider applying parking restrictions to make the charge point bays for EVs only, with penalties for ICE cars that block them. One of the reasons I have not proceeded with purchasing an EV this time was not only the general lack of public facilities, but my observation that where they were provided they were frequently blocked by ICE cars. One public car park I visited recently had been provided with 8 charge points – 2 were "Out of Order" & 5 were taken by ICE cars when I arrived, all 6 when I returned.

Nigel B.

Edited By mgnbuk on 13/02/2022 11:57:19

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