Newcomer to machining who wants to make OO gauge locos

[nilunquamsimile1914Participant @nilunquamsimile1914]

I have every book that talks about 4mm scale loco scratchbuilding and most of the them are quite old. The machining equipment shown and mentioned in those books aren’t produced or sold anymore. My favorite is a modern book written by tom mallard released this year by wild swan. The issue with this book is that the equipment he lists out is inaccessible when it comes to price like a schaublin 70 lathe, sixis 1101 mill, and a old fashioned manual pantograph engraver that no one produces anymore. Rare pieces of equipment that are scarce to come by and have no presence in the US market. The vast majority of heavy machining equipment never leave their country of origin anyways. Biggest diameter I would need a lathe to be able to handle is 1″ because the biggest driving wheels, which I think is the stirling single is 1.1 inches in the inaccurate commercially available OO gauge version. For a mill it has to be able to produce tiny parts because oo gauge is small.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’d be looking at Sherline lathes and mills. There is some very good work done on them in the right hands.

The desktop CNC is a good replacement for the pantograph

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Dont forget Taig equipment as well, as you are in the US.

[nilunquamsimile1914Participant @nilunquamsimile1914]

Is the praise I hear about sherline and taig real? What do you use own and use at home? I’ve seen youtubers like clickspring and artisan makes talk about sherline being a quality tool, nothing like the asian import machines that supposedly need work done before it can be put to work.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Go look at some of the work that comes off of them. Same for the imported machines.

Chris Ruby posts a lot on another forum and he just has Sherlines, scroll down below the wooden stuff for the working steam cranes and loggers etc. Thene there is the likes of Jerry Kieffer, although not all completely done with Sherline machine sthere are some like the Red Corliss that only use dthem.

I make both large and small engines on far eastern machines ranging from Steam, hot air. flame lickers. internal combustion and they all work well. Have a look at this whole play list to see what can be done on and I have not done any “work” on the machines which are generally as they came out the crate and I don’t have an engineering background. If I were downsizing then I would go with the Sherlines.

I’ve a friend with a Sixis 101 and schaublin 70 along with quite a few other “quality” machines, I would not say they make anything better than me on my far eastern machines.

At the end of the day it’s the person turning the handwheels that makes the parts and what comes out the workshop is more important than what is inside.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I have that book by Tom Mallard – ‘Finescale Locomotive Building’ (published by Wid Swan) and very much enjoyed reading it.  Tom is a fine commercial 7mm modeller, who developed methods and tooling that suited him but then (in my view) stopped seeking to further develop them. I guess if I could produce models like his, I might do the same though. However, he also has a ‘learned’ skill set that you do not. You are going to have to learn your own ‘way’.

His use of 2D CAD I found very interesting because it mirrored my long use of TurboCAD 2D before I moved on to (3D) Solid Edge some years ago now. Much of his works revolves around photo-etching, which is still a very valid technology but not the only one these days. He also uses a pantograph to produce some parts (as does a friend of mine) and gets very good results but they were originally designed for engraving and CNC has largely replaced them now.

I model in 13.5mm (Gauge 3) so my needs are somewhat different to 4mm (‘OO’) but I do appreciate the tradeoffs involved in building small scale models. If I was thinking about modelling in 4mm I’d certainly still be thinking about etching and what work I’d need a lathe and mill for. I’d also be thinking about my design tools, as (for instance) whilst 2D CAD works for etching and laser cutting, it won’t generate the solid models needed for modern additive/subtractive manufacturing.

I’d also consider what your motivations are. I like making/building things, albeit I’m not very good at it. Many of my G3 friends are much more interested in ‘running’ things – they prefer the convenience of ready-to-run modelling. Of course, that engine/carriage set etc that you’d really like to have, may not be available in 4mm (although an awful lot is). There’s always a trade-off in time versus money – so it depends on what you enjoy doing…

I guess I’m trying to suggest you think about the why’s and when’s of what you are trying to do. There are other methods now available – that Tom Mallard doesn’t use. My 3D filament printer wouldn’t be much good to you but a resin printer might be. I have a resin printer but haven’t used it (yet) because I hadn’t thought about the mess and fumes. However, I can now send a STEP file and get a high quality print back in some exotic materials (e.g. things I’d never be able to print myself – like nylon & metal) at a high but affordable cost. The same goes for CNC and laser cutting – I have a small CNC router but its had a very large learning curve and (again) I could outsource that work these days and save time and money.

So a lathe and mill will be useful but perhaps other methods more so – especially as the size of things diminishes. I have a Taig milling head that is very solid and can machine small non-ferrous parts easily. If money is no object then Sherline has a very good reputation but Taig is also still good (although not as aesthetic perhaps) and the Chinese make very usable small machinery now too.

If I made one recommendation to you (as a scratch builder) it would be to learn 3D CAD and generally skip 2D. It will open up many options to you and then you can decide the best process for the model/part in hand. But as those parts get smaller and your (and my) eyes get weaker, having alternatives to manual machining do become just a bit more attractive.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

 

IanT

[nilunquamsimile1914]

On nilunquamsimile1914 Said:

Is the praise I hear about sherline and taig real? What do you use own and use at home? I’ve seen youtubers like clickspring and artisan makes talk about sherline being a quality tool, nothing like the asian import machines that supposedly need work done before it can be put to work.

To my mind there’s a mismatch between needs, expectations and reality.

• When Chinese hobby lathes first appeared they were made down to a price.  30 years ago the ‘kit of parts’ accusation had legs, but since then they’ve improved.  When I bought a mini-lathe 15 years ago, I was delighted to find that the naysayers where mostly wrong.  Mine worked out-of-the-box, wasn’t covered in chicken fat, and did a competent job on the general purpose work I needed to do.  It benefited from light fettling, and had several imperfections. Served me well as a starter machine, and when I upgraded, it was because a mini-lathe was too small for the work I was doing, not because it was junk.
• Matching the lathe to the scale and type of work is important.  Minilathes are a shade too clunky for clocks and OO / 4mm gauge locos. Taig and Sherline are popular for finessing small parts.  Both are small and quiet enough to sit on a Dining Table, not needing a workshop to cope with noise and dirt.   Both do light work competently, but check out the accessories available.  If the accessories needed to model OO gauge is available for the Taig, then it’s cheaper and mostly “good enough”.   Sherline are a notch better made, more extensible, and – last time I looked – had more accessories.   So a Sherline is less likely to run out of puff than a Taig, but the price reflects that, and Sherline goodies are a waste of money if a Taig does the job.  Neither are as powerful as a mini-lathe if roughing out large lumps of metal is important.    A minilathe is just about acceptable noise and dirt-wise on a dining table: bigger lathes should be in a workshop.  If OO gauge involves more roughing out than precision detailing, then a minilathe scores.
• Cowells are upmarket.  Solidly made and will do a lot more work than a Taig or Sherline before wearing out.  A good choice for anyone intending to do 60 years of busy machining!   Unsuitable for rough work – the motor is too small.
• Feel may be important:  though they can be improved, mini-lathe controls are distinctly gritty and lumpy.  My experience of Taig, Sherline and Cowells is limited to a 10 minute play on each, but the Taig and Sherline operated smoothly, whilst the Cowells was silky smooth.
• Though much is made of lathe accuracy, an experienced machinist can work miracles on a wonky lathe.  An accurate lathe with low run-out, good alignment, and no bed-wear makes life easier, and is more beginner friendly, but you may not need it.

So you get blurred advice:

• people can and do get good results from minilathes, but small work is tricky
• Taig owners do small work more easily, and are mostly pleased they didn’t waste money on a Sherline.
• Sherline cover more ground, but cost more.  Their owners are mostly pleased they didn’t waste money on a Cowells.  Boasting rights too – they can sneer at Taig and minilathe owners.
• Cowells are a safe bet for serious workers, but costly.   Top boasting rights too!

If I needed a small lathe and money was no object, I’d buy a Cowells.  Reality check! Bearing in mind how little I’d use it, the Sherline is a good choice, and so is the Taig.   I’d decide by identifying the accessories needed: if future expansion was likely, buy Sherline, otherwise go Taig.  As is, I do small work on a big lathe.  Very clunky, but I manage.

I guess Sherline sell well because they’re the middle of the road option.  Nothing wrong with that.

Final point, in the UK Model Engineers often consider buying tools to be a lifetime investment.  ‘Buy cheap buy twice’, they advise, happily wasting your money.   These days most of us can afford to upgrade later if need be.  Therefore there’s no need for a beginner to spend a fortune on the best of all possible lathes.  You could start with a minilathe and, if it proves unsuitable, swap it for a Cowells later.   The value of the cheaper machine is in the learning experience, and it has some second-hand value.

Dave

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Good info and summary Dave, but maybe the Unimat lathe could be considered as an option as well…

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

What you need is a clockmaker’s lathe which is a little bigger than a watchmaker’s lathe and a little smaller than a model engineer’s lathe. However nothing has ever been marketed as such though in the UK dozens of that size used to be made before aspirations and wallets grew bigger so I expect the same occurred in the USA. There will be thousands of such lathes lurking abandoned in lofts and basements but they are now coming out in the online used marketing boom.
Bear in mind that precision work for clocks and watches was routinely undertaken on lathes without a fancy bed and slides. The ONLY important feature is that the spindle can be adjusted for zero shake with all else depending on practice leading to skill in its use.

To help you track down a suitable machine which can be very region dependent search out your local Model Railroad, Model Engineering, Horological, Woodturning, Maker, Crafter, etc groups. Even if you are an agoraphobic loner a visit to some such clubs can get you contacts who can advise and probably a few machines will be available from estate sales.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

I have and use a Taig lathe (in the UK but bought from the US). It works very well for the small scale work I do (mostly clock scale). That said I have turned, courtesy of Taig’s riser blocks, a 6″ diameter aluminium disc to create a fixture plate for my rotary table.

As a happy Taig user I would make the following comments.

The Taig is very reasonably priced ( particularly if you are in the US), and capable of high precision work. It is however, compared with the more expensive Sherline equivalent, more the basis for making what you want, than an out of the box ready to go solution. If you simply want a lathe to make models, then the Sherline ready to run out of the box will be a better bet. If however you want to make something that suits you, the Taig is a good cheap starting point.

Sherline sell a wider range of accessories and addons than Taig, so its possible to buy all sorts of features that you will need to engineer yourself if you go the Taig route. I have added DRO’s and a powered leadscrew to my Taig. It is also driven by a variable speed DC motor (I would suggest not to buy the stock Taig AC motor), something which comes with the Sherline.

In either case (Taig or Sherline) I would suggest getting an ER16 headstock with the M22 x 1.5mm thread. Both firms supply chucks and faceplates to fit that thread (I have an M22 x 1.5 Sherline 3 jaw I use on my Taig). Using ER collets when working with material smaller that 10mm diameter is far nicer than trying to do it with the jaws of a chuck spinning past your fingers. The ER collets hold a decent range of  material sizes so you need 10-12 collets. Going down the watchmakers collet route (where each collet only holds a very small range of sizes) gets very expensive very quickly (check out Sherline’s collet sets).

Taig don’t do a screw cutting capability, although people have engineered  solutions. Sherline do a hand cranked capability. So far taps and dies have met all my screw cutting needs.

Like Dave – if money were no object and I wanted to simply make clock scale things, would probably get a Cowells. However I have got very used to the idea that if I need something changed on the lathe I can simply make or modify  the Taig, and that is not something that would be as easy on the Cowells.

[nilunquamsimile1914Participant @nilunquamsimile1914]

Ok, I’ll worry about shopping for a 3D CAD software first and weigh my options.

[nilunquamsimile1914]

On nilunquamsimile1914 Said:

Ok, I’ll worry about shopping for a 3D CAD software first and weigh my options.

Good move!   We can help with 3D-CAD too.  In my case:

• Started with TurboCAD and didn’t get on with it.  I think because it’s a pioneer product, strong on 2D-drawing, that’s been extended to do 3D.   Just a guess, but a significant percentage of 2D-draughtsmen have severe difficulty thinking in 3D.  As 3D inverts the design process, products that support 2D make it hard to change mindset.
• FreeCAD is free as in beer and speech.  Open Source, so lags behind commercial products.  In the past shot itself in the foot by presenting newcomers with a bewildering array of “workbenches”.  Latest version makes “Part Design” more obvious; that’s the one for Model Engineering.  Good for designing single parts.  I haven’t explored it properly but the recently added assembly workbench seems primitive.
• Fusion360 is powerful and modern, much to like.  I found it fairly easy to learn.  On the downside, it operates in the cloud, and the vendor can change features and Terms and Conditions at any time.  So a user hooked on the Community version may suddenly find himself having to pay for it because an important function has been moved behind a paywall.  After AutoCAD did just that, I bailed out.  Not because I’m a cheapskate, it’s because I don’t do enough 3D modelling to justify paying the asking price.
• I’ve settled on SolidEdge.  Not as slick as F360 and harder to learn but at least as powerful.  Runs locally, no need for an internet connection,  and less vulnerable to licence changes.  What you get is stable. Almost fully functional, the main limitations compared with the full product being: no support; no bug fixes; cannot inter-operate with the full version, parts database missing/incomplete.  (But it can use external parts databases)   The more I use it, the better it gets, which is always a good sign.  There are no limits on part or assembly sizes.
• Alibre is popular here: sensibly priced!
• Can’t comment Onshape and other alternatives because I’ve not used them in anger.  One thing to watch out for: several 3D-CAD products are aimed at 3D-printing.  They support pulling curved shapes rather than the straight line cuts common in conventional machining.   (Workflow: model part in 3D, generate dimensioned 2d drawings from the model, print 2D drawing, and use it in the workshop to make parts with manual tools.)

On the subject of me not commenting, in my post on small lathes I didn’t mention Unimat, Proxxon, Far Eastern micro-lathes and other alternatives because I’ve no direct experience.  Others have: Unimat, well-liked; Proxxon and Micro-lathes get  mixed reviews. Negative comments may be because beginners take deep fast cuts that severely stress a small budget machine’s rigidity, motor and electronics.  Small lathes require more skill, they’re emphatically not metal munchers.  Scalpels, not chainsaws!

I also didn’t mention learning on machinable metals.  Avoid scrap when starting out because modern manufacturing uses alloys that suit their processes, which need not include turning or milling.  Many stainless steels are difficult because they work-harden, and many Aluminium alloys are too soft.  So buy known metal where the spec includes phrases like “free-cutting” or “good machinability”.   Ordinary mild-steel is acceptable rather than good because it tends to tear, leaving a poor finish.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I assume there are published drawings available so you could start with a known design and  hone your machining skills on that rather than jump straight in and start designing your own.

A lot will depend on the methods you want to use to make the various parts, if you need to outsource etching, laser cutting or 3D printing then you will need CAD to produce suitable files from the published drawings. But if they are parts you can make without having to get a third party involved then you can start machining straight from the bought in plans.

Do you have any previous machining experience?

To me there is not a lot of lathe work needed on these size locos, mainly wheels and exles then smokebox and chimney after that it is mostly sheet work and fabrication. So the mill (also your drill) will be the one betting the most use though that depends on whether you have parts etched  etc so put the money and thought about accesorie sinto the mill more than the lathe.

[nilunquamsimile1914Participant @nilunquamsimile1914]

I have 0 machining experience.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I feel you need to do a lot of reading first, perhaps from the Worshop practice series of books or A Man And His Lathe and similar titles. Some people may think they are old fashioned but its the old thing about learning to walk before you can run.

[nilunquamsimile1914Participant @nilunquamsimile1914]

Is the stevens milling machine still being produced? Does anyone know what that is like? I’m lokking at an image of it in tom’s book. Would a drill press also be a better investment? Tom also mentions a drill press called the cameron micro drill press. In the past i’ve seen a dvd from nick carters website that teaches people how to do every milling operation on a drill press. I put two and two together so… yeah.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks like there was one on ebay recently

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176928067695

MichaelG.

Ref. https://www.lathes.co.uk/stevens/

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don’t think they are made anymore though I do remember looking at some similar small mill although the price was not small.

Personally I would go with a mill over a drill press any day. The big advantage of a mill is you can use the handwheel dials, dial gauges or a DRO to accurately position the holes etc  rather than trying to mark out and then pick up the marked positions on a drill press. I seldom use my drill press now.

You do want something with a high spindle speed for the small cutters and drills you will be using.

With no machining experiance, then it is going to take you some time to really get the most out of these precision machines as if you can’t grind a cutting tool and set it on centre height no lathe in the world is going to produce good work no matter how well made and what it cost,

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Also an interesting one-off Lathe !

https://www.lathes.co.uk/stevens-lathe/

MichaelG.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

With all due respect, you seem to want to run before you can walk. I would suggest buying a secondhand Chinese mini lathe which should not cost a lot and practice your machining skills, before going upmarket. You can sell the mini lathe when you have learnt the basics.

Andrew.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Since you have no machining experience, you need to gain some before starting to make items that require a degree of precision.

Don’t worry about your books mentioning machines that are no longer available new.

The principles of machining on a lathe or a mill are the same whether the machine is a Taig, Sherline or a Myford ML7.

You cut metal using a suitably ground tool, set at centre height. The rate at which you remove metal will be limited by your skill, and the power and rigidity of the machine and its set up.

Obviously, for OO or HO gauge rail, you do not need a large machine, a small one should suffice.

(A friend here in UK scratch builds O gauge rolling stock, and he has a C1 lathe, which has only a 150 watt motor. He makes parts for his locos and rolling stock as well as fixtures  to machine parts consistently)

You can do small work on a big machine, but the reverse is more difficult

I would suggest that you concentrate, initially on becoming familiar with whatever machine you buy, and reasonably confident in its operation.

Remember that the cut that you put on, will come off the other side of the workpiece, so a 0.005″ cut will reduce diameter by 0.010″

I you can get them, look for books by Stan Bray ( The Compact Lathe, or Basic Lathework – No 45 in the Workshop Practice Series), or Harold Hall (Lathework, A Complete Course – No 34 in the Workshop Practice Series).

For a small lathe you are not going to be removing metal rapidly.

The operator manual for a C2 or C3 mini lathe says that 0.010″ depth of cut is a roughing cut.

Learn how to rotate a handwheel slowly and steadily to produce a good finish.

Once you have mastered the basics, then you can be more adventurous.

Be prepared to practice by just cutting metal, rather than trying to make a model, in the early days.

Try making a few basic tools. You will gain experience, and confidence and have a a tool that can be used in the future.

I would suggest starting by making a Centre Height Gauge. This will help you to set the tools to the centre height of the lathe.  The tool might be correctly ground, but will not cut properly, of at all, if not at centre height. If it does cut, when you face across the end of the work, it will leave a pip in the middle. This can break a centre drill when you start trying to drill a hole, before tapping a thread in the work.

You can buy Die Holders, and make a body to carry them (This will give you practice in turning, boring, drilling and tapping.

For tapping, you will need a Tap Wrench and Lubricant (Such as Trefolex or Rocol RTD)

Don’t forget to budget for measuring equipment; minimum a digital calliper. You can probably find a cheap one in supermarkets. Certainly in one of the big tool stores.

With more experience, you can make yourself sliding Die and Tap Holders, carried in the Tailstock.

Plenty of folk on here will give advice to help you.

Above all, DON’T rush. Take time to learn. It used to take four years to train a skilled turner.

You will make mistakes, we all do! Just learn from them, each one is additional knowledge and experience.

H T H

Howard

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, even a top of the range machine doesn’t a good machinist make, but a good machinist can make good things on budget machines, and old/worn ones too, sometimes. Buy something within a throw away price that is in fairly good condition, and have a bit of practice first.

Regards Nick.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As I said I don’t see a lot of lathe work needed for these size locos, I’d be looking at your hand skills, then milling/drilling and finally lathe work. Can’t see much on the unpainted engine on Tom Mallard’s site that would need turning – wheels axles, pivot pins, chimney, firebox door/ring.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Although I appreciate that the OP is based in the USA it worth pointing out that Taig equipment is available in the UK re-badged as Peatol and is available from Rotagrip

Peatol Mill

Peatol Lathe

Rod

[James AParticipant @jamesalford67616]

My one comment is that if you do decide to get a Peatol or Taig lathe, then try to get one that has a lead screw. Mine was an earlier version that only had a rack and pinion for the carriage. I found it very hard to control it when trying to do fine work. Other than that, it seemed fine.

James.

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