Biting the bullet

[superricky99Participant @superricky99]

Hello, there have been many times in the past when a lathe would’ve made life much easier. I happend to see one advertised locally, CL500M, and I am going to pick it up next week. Only really want to do a few basic things, so I think this should be plenty to be starting with. Are there any QCTP that work with the CL500M without much adaption?

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Might pay you to look at Amadeal or RDG they have several to choose from.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Nice to see another lathe owner. We can help with a few problems but do some reading around the forum as many questions have been covered before.
If you are only going to do a few things there is no need for a QCTP. Lots of more useful things to put the money into. See the many threads on here for beginners.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I’m with Bazyle, At this early stage I would save your money for the many more important things that you will need ! I got a lathe in 1971 and have not yet found the need for a QCTP, I use the 4 way it came with, though often only  2 ways are used. Good luck.  Noel.

PS If buying check that ALL the tool holders will fit. Tool holders of different manufacturers do not always fit your mounting so it is a good idea to get as many as you think you will need at one time – now it’s getting costly !

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If you are not planning to do significant amounts of complex jobs I think you’d be better off saving your money and using multiple block tool posts rather than purchasing a QC system. These can be simply and cheaply made at home by bolting together stock metal sections in either standard four way or, in my view preferable if you have several, 2 way types.

The primary reason for QC toolposts is to have all the tools needed for job set up ready to go so when you are doing something needing several tools the holders can be quickly swopped over, complete with tools, putting the cutting tip back into exactly the same position as the last time it was used. If making many of the same parts the advantages are obvious.

At home it’s nice to be able to have everything ready to go but the cost is not insignificant. Folk who seriously exploit a QC system tend to end up with around 10 to 20 holders.

QC systems have screw adjustments to set the cutting tip height which is generally considered a little easier than the necessary swopping of shims under a tool held in a block toolpost when mounted on the lathe. If you have multiple, interchangeable, block toolposts with the tools areas fitted the shimming to height can be done by measurement with the block on the bench. Easy if your shims are sorted. It is said that the colour coded packs of plastic shim stock can work quite well.

The inherent difficulty with swopping blocks is the need for some sort of gauge or indexing system to ensure that the block goes back in the same rotational position each time. A parallel spacer butting up against the block on one side and the tailstock barrel on the other is simple and adequately effective. A support is desirable to avoid running out of hands.

The CL500M has considerable maximum turning radius yet the toolholding system is sized for a rather smaller machine so its quite possible to push a QC system beyond what it was really intended to do. A solid block toolpost gives a firmer mounting due to the tool being firmly held directly onto the slide rather than offset via sliding joints mounting inevitable with a QC system. Small QC systems are generally aimed at hobbyists with smaller machines and matching smaller pockets.

Affordability means they cannot be made to the same standards as the, in comparison, eyewateringly expensive, professional systems so ultimate rigidly and stiffness does suffer.

Fine for the intended application on smaller machines doing smaller work but exploiting the full 12 inch turning capacity of the CL500M was definitely not in the design brief. If you do find yourself desiring to do large work it’s advisable to remove the topslide and replace it with a hefty block to give the tools a much stiffer mount. In ME circles this is popularly known as a Gibraltar toolpost. Many users advocate using larger tooling too. Probably a good idea if starting out with something, ahem, “less than round”.

As ever it’s a matter of equipping yourself in a manner that fits both your depth of pocket and intended work. The biggest issue for neophyte being that you don’t yet know what you don’t know. We can guide and help but only experience will get you properly sorted. We have all got a few white elephants either in our purchase history or still hiding behind the bench!

Clive

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

As others have said, I doubt if you will have any real need for QCTP,s, since you are not involved in production work. Might be nice to look at, but cost a bomb.

I thought about about them at one stage, still thinking about them 20 years later !

Save your money for something more useful.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I’m in the QC camp and find that bought over the years has definitely been worth it. More time making bits and faster but not necessary but nice if you can make something at one sitting while everything is fresh in your mind(that’s where most of my drawings are).

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

After 40+ years, still have not found any desparate need for a Q C T P.

They were originally intended, as their name suggests, for quick changing of tools on production work, where time is money. Holders from one version are unlikely to fit a post from another!

For the hobbyist, very often the machine is not sufficiently rigid to maximise the benefits of the sort of speeds, feeds, and cuts needed in industry, to minimise process time.

You might be better making a rear toolpost for the lathe. (I went mad and made a 4 way rear post, so that the front post carries Rougher, Finisher and Boring tool, while the rear post carries front and back Chamfer tools and a Parting tool.

A parting tool, obviously mounted inverted, in the rear post makes parting off much less fraught.

In any case, before launching into a load of accessories, get to know the machine. Otherwise you might find that you have bought gadgets that you very rarely, if ever, use.

Use the machine to make simple tools that you WILL use; Centre Height Gauge, Tailstock Sliding Die Holders, and using a suitably mounted drill chuck, a Sliding Tailstock Tap Holder.

(The Tailstock does not slide, the Holder slides on an arbor held in the Tailstock)

Holding the Tap in a drill chuck will prevent some broken Taps, by letting the Tap slip, if things get tight, rather than breaking and converting the workpiece into scrap.)

As they say in Suffolk, “Make haste, slowly”. Take time to be become familiar with the machine and it’s capabilities. By then, you might have found some accessories that you DO need.

Just cut some metal to find what the machine, and you, can do, before launching into something complicated.

As you gain experience, so will your confidence, and your ability to plan and execute work.

You won’t be the first person to find themselves with a half finished job that can no longer be held for further operations!

Howard

[JAParticipant @ja]

Experience is everything. Make something. A simple steam engine would be a good start. This will tell you what is required. If possible buy tooling. Life is too short, particularly if you are retired, to spend time making tooling when you can buy off the shelf. I know having made that mistake.

JA

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think a lot will depend on what thos ethings you felt a lathe would have been useful in the past are. If you are primerily wanting to us ethe lathe as just another tool to make other hobbies easier then buying a QCTP may be a better use of your time than making tools that can be bought so cheaply these days.

I’m very much in the QCTP or would it be better called a Quick set toolpost camp as even if you are not using a tool that has had it’s holder adjusted they make setting it’s height a lot easier than fiddling with bits of shim. Also negate the need for a tool height setter, something I have never found the need for with my QCTP.

I made 3 small items today, two of one and one of the other and used a total of 9 different turning tools. 8 of which were quickly swapped with just a 1/4 turn of a lever and no faffing to set height. The other was a seldom used form tool so that went into my “undedicated” holder and was quickly set to height by eye just by turning the height adjuster.  Of the pair of matching items I did not have to measure the second one as I just use the same handwheel settings, not so easy with loose tools or a non indexing 4-way tool holder.

As for what fits that lathe take a few height measurements and also check the toolpost stud diameter and length and compare that with what is on offer. Don’t go for massively large cross section tools 6x6mm or 8x8mm shanks will do for most jobs unless you have excessive tool stick out such as on a boring bar.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

JA is right, experience is important, but you will gain experience and confidence by just cutting metal, and then making simple objects before embarking on a project that requires the skill that you have just learned.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Another point worth considering when selecting a tool holding system is the seemingly inexorable decrease in real world relative prices of decently useable ISO standard inserts and tooling. Because the toolholder and insert system accurately sets the cutting tip height the screw adjustment feature of a QC system, which makes life easier when replacing re-sharpened HSS tools, is completely negated. Any shimming needed with a block type post is a one and done thing so not particularly onerous.

Given careful shopping I suspect the cost of Jasons QC system and 9 tool holders is going to equate to something approaching 200 cutting edges. Maybe more.

Probably in excess of a lifetime supply for a not particularly intensive user.

Not needing to set-up for sharpening HSS further tips the cost balance.

For a neophyte having a reliable “book” specification for speeds and feeds and knowing the tip shape is correct for effective cutting is a not inconsiderable advantage of inserts. The primary disadvantage of is that if you get careless and damage an edge it”s done. No trotting round to the grinder to fix a blunted or overheated HSS tip.

If you do choose to use interchangeable block posts, preferably inexpensive shop made ones, the conventional nut and stud fixing does make swopping a bit slower than a QC system. Less of a worry if using fully loaded four way blocks as, most of the time, simple rotation gives enough tools for the job. Personally I’d prefer slimmer, two way blocks which not only reduces the porcupine effect but also has less chance of arguing with the tailstock when working in close quarters.

Some means or accurately setting rotational alignment when re-fitting is desirable. Back in my interchangeable block using days I relied on an external, hand held, setting gauge which was workable but objectively less than perfect.

If faster changes are essential it’s not impossible to come up with a system that needs only a part turn to release the block for changes and also incorporates a reliable orientation index. Some years ago Neil was kind enough to publish a letter from me in MEW giving the basic functional drawing for a not too taxing to build system of that style that I’d designed some years previously. In the event changing lathes to ex-industrial sizes complete with Dickson QC set-ups for the third iteration of my workshop meant I never built the concept but it would certainly have worked. Later reflection suggests that simplification without loss of functionality is possible.

For the moment of course the sensible thing is to use what comes with the machine and figure out what will work for you once you have gotten bit of practice in.

Clive

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