A question about lock (jam) nuts

A question about lock (jam) nuts

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Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
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  • #9445
    Robin Graham
    Participant
      @robingraham42208
      #385182
      Robin Graham
      Participant
        @robingraham42208

        I'm involved in doing some metalwork for a DIY twin screw chain drive woodworking vice. The design shares features with this Lie Nielsen product:

        lnviceassembled.jpg

        The locknuts on the driven screw (there is a sprocket/chain arrangement linking the screws, which is hidden in the jaw) hold the screw between a pair of thrust bearings, I'm sure that works, but to my eye it is ugly – so I wondered about other ways of doing it.

        So far I have thought about making a round 'nut' drilled so it could be tightened with a pin spanner and held with threadlock (it could then be recessed into the jaw) or using a Nylock or Stover nut which again could be recessed. What I don't know is how secure these fasteners are comparison with lock nuts.

        Any advice?

        Robin

         

         

         

         

         

        Edited By Robin Graham on 11/12/2018 23:08:33

        #385188
        Jon
        Participant
          @jon

          Normal nuts and a strong locktite

          #385190
          Michael Gilligan
          Participant
            @michaelgilligan61133
            Posted by Robin Graham on 11/12/2018 23:07:26:

            [ … ]

            So far I have thought about making a round 'nut' drilled so it could be tightened with a pin spanner and held with threadlock (it could then be recessed into the jaw) or using a Nylock or Stover nut which again could be recessed. What I don't know is how secure these fasteners are comparison with lock nuts.

            Any advice?

            Robin

            .

            Unless there might be a future need to remove the 'nut' your first idea seems excellent, and you could use a high strength retainer [such as Loctite 601 or 638].

            Question: Are the double nuts [as illustrated] used so that they can be easily undone if necessary ?

            MichaelG.

            #385196
            Bazyle
            Participant
              @bazyle

              Some kind of plastic cover as used for pipe ends or RF connectors before use would go a long way to improving appearance. The picture above is a disgrace from a high end product. At least make a dome nut for the outer one. The trouble with a special needing a pin spanner etc is availability of said spanner twenty years from now. Best might be to recess the inner nut slightly while still allowing enough to protrude for a sheet metal spanner, dome nut on outside.

              #385198
              pgk pgk
              Participant
                @pgkpgk17461

                I looked up some pics of chain vices and noted one brand used dual socket fittings for the option of having the handle either end and also that the handle socket end has a boss screwed to the jaw and the socket retained by a simple screw. If that screw is strong enough for the handle then why not make a matching boss and domehead nut with similar screw retaining it (or plaigerise dual sockets)?

                #385201
                Michael Gilligan
                Participant
                  @michaelgilligan61133

                  Posted by Bazyle on 12/12/2018 00:01:04:

                  The picture above is a disgrace from a high end product.

                  .

                  Oops !

                  I thought it was some DIY project blush

                  … Having just looked at the website surprise

                  https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4068/workbenches

                  MichaelG.

                  Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/12/2018 00:19:35

                  #385202
                  Mark Rand
                  Participant
                    @markrand96270

                    Turn the left hand screw down to form a flange to retain the sprocket. Cut a keyseat in the screw and a keyway in the sprocket. Then there only needs to be a single nut to retain the sprocket.The nut can be drilled to be  tightened with a pin spanner, so it can be made flush or recessed.

                    Edited By Mark Rand on 12/12/2018 00:59:04

                    #385229
                    Martin Kyte
                    Participant
                      @martinkyte99762

                      I used one of these on my woodwork bench.

                      **LINK**

                      You could add the extra handle which gives you the option of tidying things up. My version has a resettable locking pin to allow one screw to be disconnected from the drive so they then act independently. This allows the vise to be skewd to accomodate tapered work pieces.

                      regards Martin

                      #385267
                      mechman48
                      Participant
                        @mechman48

                        No need to complicate stuff… recess the vice jaws sufficiently to allow a socket to fit & fit Nylock nuts, jobs a good 'un

                        George.

                        #385270
                        not done it yet
                        Participant
                          @notdoneityet

                          It’s American. Obviously function over form! Or plain economics, and using the cheapest fixings.

                          #385272
                          Howard Lewis
                          Participant
                            @howardlewis46836

                            If it a commercial product, I would have hoped for a better Handle fitting than a Tee piece for iron pipe.

                            Instead of using locknuts, a self locking nut, such as a nyloc would look better, in my view.

                            Or maybe a single nut, locked by a small grubscrew?

                            Things may get a little interesting when the chain develops a bit of slack and the screws no longer rotate exactly in phase! The road to hell, as ever, is paved with good intentions.

                            Nice concept, though.

                            How about making a proper Engineer's job of it and using a shaft and bevel gears to drive the second screw? (Obviously with Phosphor Bronze bushes, or Ball Races, to carry it? With a sealed cover over everything, to exclude sawdust)

                            As long as money is no object!

                            Howard

                            #385277
                            Frances IoM
                            Participant
                              @francesiom58905

                              It’s for woodwork – required gripping pressures are not that high as the raw material bruises easily and the vice should allow gripping of large non rectangular pieces – the usual design allows the two screws to be decoupled and for the moving jaw to be at a reasonable angle to the fixed jaw – re sync’d by moving both jaws together then reconnecting any linkage mechanism. Wooden handles are nice to handle in a workshop and are practical as woodwork requires clean non-oily hands – that make is not cheap!

                              #385367
                              Robin Graham
                              Participant
                                @robingraham42208

                                Thanks for replies – the pic in my opening post is indeed of a high-end commercial product. The hardware kit for the vice retails at $285 in the USA. I glad that I'm not the only one thinking a bit more finesse might be expected for that sort of money, especially as Lie-Nielsen's target market seems to be those who want (and are willing to pay for) tools that are both functional and works of art.

                                I should perhaps have made it clearer that I'm doing some metalwork here as a favour for a woodworker who has already chosen the design and sourced the raw components – my part is just to do some machining. I do this kind of thing from time to time if a project interests me and I think I may learn something.

                                I'll try some things bearing in mind your comments.

                                Howard – I like the bevel gear idea! Probably doable for less than the cost of the LN product. Maybe a central handle connected to both screws through a differential gearbox of some kind would be even betterwink

                                Thanks again, Robin

                                #385410
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb

                                  If you wanted to make something that looked a bit nicer then I would do as you are thinking and have an inner round "nut" and also make the outer nut round but with a blind thread and dome of fully round over the end. You could even add a bead detail to the inner nut so it looks a bit like the cast Tee handle boss. Just use two pin spanners to lock them up as you would do with the locknuts so just as easy to undo if needed.

                                  I don't really agree with the suggestion that loosening the nut will allow the vice to hold tapered work, as there is no provision in the bearings that the ends of the screws run in as soon as the jaw is canted to one side it will all lock solid. There is also the fact that the tool tarts that like LN etc spend all their time tweaking their planes and sharpening the blades that few actually get round to making anything, sounds familiarwink 2

                                  If you really want a vice that can angle the jaw then a pattern makers one would be the better option. Though that means you lose the main advantage of the twin screw vice which is to be able to drop a board down between the two screws and clamp it up evenly, ideal for things like cutting dovetails on wide draws etc. The main selling point of the twin screw/chain setup is that it eliminated racking, nuts really only get touched to set it parallel when first fitted.

                                   

                                  Edited By JasonB on 13/12/2018 08:40:21

                                  #385437
                                  KWIL
                                  Participant
                                    @kwil

                                    LN of course claim Heirloom Quality is their status, when you only had a horse and cart, those double nuts would look OKdevil

                                    #385467
                                    Nick Clarke 3
                                    Participant
                                      @nickclarke3

                                      In an ideal world this would be a dome nut, but your chances of finding a dome nut with what looks like about a 1" square thread are probably close to not a lot.

                                      Buying a suitable plug (bottoming) tap would not be easy either.

                                      Pity as it would look very nice.

                                      #385477
                                      JasonB
                                      Moderator
                                        @jasonb

                                        The ends of the two screws are reduced diameter with probably a UNC thread on the nutted one, the Sq thread does not extend out much into the jaw.

                                        Pics of the parts for those that are curious, you can see that the bearings would not allow the jaw to be angled and besides you don't have a way to do up the nutted side.

                                        Edited By JasonB on 13/12/2018 15:11:53

                                        #385482
                                        larry phelan 1
                                        Participant
                                          @larryphelan1

                                          As the MAN said "What,s in a name" ?

                                          I always thought that stuff was way overpriced,while being no better than many other makes,but then,I could never afford it anyway,so maybe it was a case of sour grapes?cheeky

                                          #385492
                                          Neil Wyatt
                                          Moderator
                                            @neilwyatt
                                            Posted by not done it yet on 12/12/2018 12:44:28:

                                            It’s American. Obviously function over form! Or plain economics, and using the cheapest fixings.

                                            As the basic principal was patented in 1892, I suspect that American woodworkers prefer a 'traditional' appearance – it's probably been made that way for decades.

                                            There are folks who feel the same about machine tools believe it or not

                                            Neil

                                            #385522
                                            Michael Gilligan
                                            Participant
                                              @michaelgilligan61133
                                              Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/12/2018 16:36:35:
                                              – it's probably been made that way for decades.

                                              .

                                              Except for those nasty double nuts … which is where we came in angel

                                              MichaelG.

                                              #385539
                                              Robin Graham
                                              Participant
                                                @robingraham42208

                                                Posted by JasonB on 13/12/2018 08:24:18:

                                                There is also the fact that the tool tarts that like LN …

                                                LOL! Not heard that one before, but I know what you mean. Personally, If ever I were mad enough to pay £300+ for a bench plane I'd probably be too frightened to actually use it. Old Stanley / Records can be had for a tenner or so from boot sales and they work fine for me. My own woodworking vice isn't going to win any beauty contests either:

                                                img_1855.jpg

                                                but it works.

                                                How about this for a flush fitting lock nut system?

                                                img_1854.jpg

                                                 

                                                Idea being that one could get a suitably designed pin spanner through the slots in the top nut to hold the bottom nut and use another to tighten the top one. On the basis that there's nothing new under the sun it's probably been tried and doesn't work for some reason.

                                                Thanks for further ideas, Robin

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Edited By Robin Graham on 13/12/2018 21:40:53

                                                #385549
                                                not done it yet
                                                Participant
                                                  @notdoneityet

                                                  Who woud be first to lose that specially designed pin spanner, of huge cost?

                                                  I wouldn’t, because I know I would likely mislay it, especially just before I needed it, so I would buy something else!

                                                  #385555
                                                  Neil Wyatt
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @neilwyatt
                                                    Posted by Robin Graham on 13/12/2018 21:37:00:

                                                    How about this for a flush fitting lock nut system?

                                                    img_1854.jpg

                                                    Idea being that one could get a suitably designed pin spanner through the slots in the top nut to hold the bottom nut and use another to tighten the top one. On the basis that there's nothing new under the sun it's probably been tried and doesn't work for some reason.

                                                    Thanks for further ideas, Robin

                                                    Neat! But would four holes in the bottom nut so you can tighten it whatever the way they match up be a good idea?

                                                    #387417
                                                    Pete White
                                                    Participant
                                                      @petewhite15172

                                                      HOW MUCH!……………………………. Do people actually buy these, beside footballers and rock stars ??

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