Bronze casting.

Bronze casting.

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
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  • #820084
    old mart
    Participant
      @oldmart

      Mike has a requirement for some bronze to make a pair of conrods for a twin cylinder steam engine and they are an awkward size. They could both be machined from solid from a piece of bronze 1/2″ X 3/4″ and 6″ long, but I have not been able to find anything that size. Larger bronze can be found, but at an exorbitant price considering the ammount of swarf that would be produced. We have kept all of the old leadscrew nuts which I replaced with new antibacklash ones for both mills and lathes which are of no use unless they are melted down and recast or made into machinable forms. We only have a small MapGas torch or a larger one using propane from the spare forklift truck cylinder. I have a small hearth made from firebricks which could concentrate the heat, but I don’t know whether the required temperature could be achieved. I used to cast lead for fishing weights in plaster of paris when I was a kid, but nothing since.

      #820089
      JasonB
      Moderator
        @jasonb

        Is there any particular reason that the whole rod needs to be bronze? Possibly if copying a design that was available as a casting kit then GM castings may have been provided but it would be cheaper to make a marine type steel rod  rod and keep with split bronzes.

        P 35

        Photo 49

        #820090
        Trevor Drabble 1
        Participant
          @trevordrabble1

          Since the propane cylinders from fork lift trucks are usually bottom fed via a long tube reaching down into the cylinder , using them to drive a torch can be potentially very dangerous , and would therefore suggest you seek more informed guidance from your gas supplier on this matter before using it in this manner .

          Trevor.

          #820091
          Bazyle
          Participant
            @bazyle

            I think you would be better off saying where you are and asking if anyone or their club nearby has casting equipment.

            #820092
            duncan webster 1
            Participant
              @duncanwebster1

              +1 for Jason’s suggestion

              #820098
              old mart
              Participant
                @oldmart

                It would certainly be possible to make rods out of steel with our facilities and we have lots of bronze bushes to make the bearings from. I will see Mike on Wednesday.

                As for the tube inside propane tanks for forklift trucks, it is made to curve round close to the outside diameter about halfway down the side of the bottle. This is so the bottle can lay on its side when in use. It is common for bottles to be aligned with the tube at 45 degrees so the truck will not stop with an empty bottle and have to have a replacement carried to the truck. Just turning the bottle to its intended position will allow the operator to get moving again and give time to get a full bottle. We have used these bottles standing upright with a propane torch for years without any problems with the flame caused by liquid propane reaching the regulator.

                #820099
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  Another option with even less bronze, though it would look a bit out of place on a steam engine is to just have a split shell

                  DSC02636

                  #820102
                  old mart
                  Participant
                    @oldmart

                    What grade of steel would you recommend? Do you think 303 stainless would do, or would en24T or en19T chrome molys be better.

                    #820104
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      EN3 or S275 is what mine tend to be made with both steam and IC. If the original was bronze or gun metal then you don’t need any fancy steels as they would far exceed the properties of bronze. Is he intending it to do a lot of work or is it just to look at?

                      #820112
                      Nigel Graham 2
                      Participant
                        @nigelgraham2

                        A mild-steel rod with bronze journals would be far more in keeping, too. Full-size engines never had all-bronze motion.

                        #820114
                        noel shelley
                        Participant
                          @noelshelley55608

                          Jason or Nigel suggestions would work fine though they could be cast BUT you will need a great deal of heat and a crucible, not to mention the furnace – this will need more metal than a simple lash up will do – trust me ! If you still insist on a casting come and see me at the Midland and I will try to guide you as to what you will need and how to do it. Best wishes Noel.

                          #820141
                          Bazyle
                          Participant
                            @bazyle

                            Have you all been reading this without looking at the advert at top right for the October issue of ME&W?

                            #820159
                            John Haine
                            Participant
                              @johnhaine32865
                              #820160
                              old mart
                              Participant
                                @oldmart

                                I see that an attempt to do any casting without sufficient facilities would be difficult,and agree that with a steam engine the rods would look much better made from steel. Mike would run the engine on compressed air not steam and not for very long. He was given an incomplete kit of castings years ago, fortunately with the drawings.

                                I really like the look of Jason’s first rod photo.

                                #820166
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb

                                  Bit of a “how to” on a similar conrod in this build of mine

                                  #820191
                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                  Moderator
                                    @sillyoldduffer

                                    Casting is in reach with home-made gear if you have a suitable space.  My back garden is too small, and I try not to annoy the neighbours.   You need:

                                    • A safe space
                                    • A 5 litre or bigger steel can, lined inside and out with rock wool or similar.
                                    • Tongs, crucible and suitable safety gear.
                                    • A brave operator.  Ideally get a jackass who doesn’t believe in H&S to sign a disclaimer!  (Seriously, be careful when handling molten metal with home-made equipment.   Those tongs better not slip or bend!)
                                    • The inside of the rock-wool plastered with a 4mm thick layer of cement, leaving a decent space in the middle.
                                    • A hole in the bottom, protected by some insulating firebrick so the fuel doesn’t fall out or melt the can
                                    • The can stood on some bricks, with a channel underneath connected to a blower.  Wife’s hairdryer will do.  Plug leaks in the channel with cement: a length of steel pipe would simplify.
                                    • The can is filled with charcoal lumps about the size of a walnut and ignited.  Once going, plonk the crucible with a little metal inside on top and turn the blower on.
                                    • An insulated lid with a small vent in the middle, say 25mm diameter, to keep heat in.
                                    • When the initial metal melts, add more step by step.  Easier to melt small quantities of metal than a large lump.
                                    • When melted, lift out the crucible and pour.
                                    • Bigger the better!!!

                                    The secret is the charcoal and the blower.  They produce a high volume of heat at high temperature.  The volume matters most!

                                    • The temperature is easily reached, something over 1000°C.   A doddle with any flame.
                                    • A few kilograms of charcoal contains the volume of heat needed to melt a 100 grams of metal, perhaps more, depending on how well the can is insulated.   A poorly insulated can won’t retain heat long enough, burning fuel to no avail.   Heat is measured in Joules, with charcoal at about 30MJ per kg.   (7kWh / kg)  Temperature is measured in degrees: they are not the same thing.
                                    • The blower increases the burn rate, releasing heat faster than an ordinary fire.  Then the heat and temperature are contained reasonably well inside the can, and the crucible is immersed in it.

                                    The apparatus won’t last long!   The commercial equivalent is made of thicker steel with better insulation usually fired with Propane. A big cylinder is needed.  A well-made gas furnace is needed for repeat work, but the bodge outlined above works.

                                    Worth practising on Aluminium first.  Requires less heat and temperature to melt Aluminium than Bronze.

                                    Bronze isn’t too difficult to melt though and a larger version of the same arrangement will melt cast-iron.  A few metres high, with a bigger blower, made of brick, and fired with coke.   I watched one demonstrated in Wales on holiday.   Impressive!   But the furnace was basically just an insulated tube with a blown fire inside and a lid.  Their version was continually topped up with coke and new scrap whilst two men poured molten metal into moulds.   I bought a trivet!   The scrap looked like mild-steel, but I think they started with some cast-iron, and then added steel to coke already in the crucible.  We grockles weren’t allowed close enough to see.  The men wore gauntlets, google, hats and what looked like thick leather aprons.

                                    The tube approach fails miserably with Tungsten, mp 3400°C, which needs an electric arc.   Also do-able at home if suitably determined.  I’m not brave enough!   Not have I tried melting Aluminium in a microwave:  that works too. but it does the microwave oven a mischief and is a super-scary fire hazard.

                                    Dave

                                    #820202
                                    noel shelley
                                    Participant
                                      @noelshelley55608

                                      Firstly define jackass, then Show me the disclaimer Dave, I’ll sign it ! My furnace was cobbled together one weekend in 1997 out of a spindrier casing and is still going strong. Bronze – superheat to 1100 – 1150c .

                                      You make it look like hard work. Just for fun one evening I ran a melt using a medium sized propane burner, a small crucible , and some K23 bricks in a loose circle. Took the brass to 1030C to pour a pair of name plates.

                                      #820221
                                      bernard towers
                                      Participant
                                        @bernardtowers37738

                                        Some people will find a reason to do nothing

                                        #820222
                                        old mart
                                        Participant
                                          @oldmart

                                          I looked at the poppet valve engine build and will remember the soft soldering of the big end bronze bearings for machining. It reminded me of having to produce single pointed coarse pitch threads with a high helix angle. I soft soldered a steel anvil for an er16 threading insert to a block of steel and milled it at a greater angle than normal to help the insert follow the thread. Cleaned up the solder from the anvil and refitted it to the threading tool. Also, when I wanted to restore the threading nut for the Smart & Brown model A which is a large single sided block of bronze which slides up and down, I fixed it to a faceplate and got the last bit of the 6 tpi by 1″ ACME flat thread core running true and bored it to accept a new section of gunmetal tube with the ACME thread in it and used plumbers solder to fix it in place. There was room to increase the length of the new thread by 20% and it will last indefinitely as there is about 4 square inches of solder and it is kept clean by those tubular springs that I added to the leadscrew.

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