Machining in exchange for beer

Machining in exchange for beer

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  • #305516
    Sam Iveson 1
    Participant
      @samiveson1

      Hi Guys,

      I'm looking for some help here. I've used your forum many times in the past as a resource for information and I thought it may be a good place to ask for some assistance.

      I have a lathe and want to make some replacement pivots, axles etc for my mountain bike – the only issue is I can't broach an allen head…yet!

      I have made myself a rotary broach however I have no access to a mill and so I cannot machine the actual cutting bits (I had hoped I could get someone at work to do it for me but that's fallen through). I was hoping that someone with a mill might like to knock some up per the sketch attached in exchange for beer (or money to buy beer would probably be easier!).

      The bits are to be made from 10mm dia ground silver steel (or drill rod) which is approximately 27 HRC hardness. I can supply this. I had no trouble facing them off on my mini lathe if that helps. I realise that the hex won't be up to a square shoulder however that's just for clearance so it really doesn't matter. As for the angle, that's just how it came out when I drew it up and isn't critical (although given the choice I'd prefer a greater angle to allow more clearance than a smaller one).

      If anyone is able to help then that would be massively appreciated as until "she who must be obeyed" signs off on the milling machine I'm a bit stuck (although to be fair to the wife she has given me the go ahead on a bigger lathe!).

      I am based in Aberdeen but could post material out and of course would happily supply enough beer tokens to compensate for any return postage costs.

      Thanks in advance for any help!

      #33019
      Sam Iveson 1
      Participant
        @samiveson1
        #305521
        D Hanna
        Participant
          @dhanna35823

          If someone close to you has a D-bit grinder it would be better to grind the hex on 10mm HSS. I'm a bit far from you at 12,000 miles away!! The beer currency does sound good though!! By the way, no drawing??

          DH

          #305525
          Sam Iveson 1
          Participant
            @samiveson1

            Hi DH,

            Apologies for forgetting to attach the image! I think I got carried away thinking about beer!

            As for the tool steel, it's not that hard just now although grinding would be a good alternative. Once the cutters are back I will heat treat them to attain a hardness of (hopefully) around 57-62 HRC. Certainly when researching this project other people I came across milled the hex and then polished to achieve a better surface finish although this was likely due to machine availability rather than it being a preferred process.

            Please see below:cutting bit-page-001 (2).jpg

            #305526
            Sam Iveson 1
            Participant
              @samiveson1

              Also, if anyone is interested I have added drawings in my profile for the bearing housing and mounting flange for the rotary broach.

              I have threaded the mounting flange to take a 1/2" -20 UNF threaded arbor so that it can go straight in the tailstock (and as a plus I can fit a larger arbor when the new lathe arrives to save me having to make a new tool). The backing plate was then offset by 1 degree and faced which gives the cutting tool the 1 degree angle required for broaching once the bearing housing is bolted to it using 2 M6 bolts.

              The only thing I haven't drawn up (other than the assembly – my CAD skills aren't that good yet I'm afraid) is the tool holder itself as I poached this from another online resource (which sadly I can't remember).

              The bearing housing uses one 51202 thrust bearing to support the tool bit holder and one 6001 2RS bearing in the back to support the tool holder.

              #305549
              Bazyle
              Participant
                @bazyle

                Cut a bit off an allen key and hammer it into a hole in some stock. Heat treat if necessary. Case harden if you used a modern tool as a starting point.

                Alternatively modify the design so as not to use a socket head.

                #305555
                I.M. OUTAHERE
                Participant
                  @i-m-outahere

                  You could make a jig up and mill them in the lathe .

                  All you need is some hex bar with a hole drilled and reamed through it to accept the blank broach and a couple of decent grub screws to lock it in , if your toolpost is big enough to accept the hex bar mount it up in there and set the toolpost to the 91 deg you need then mount a milling cutter up in the chuck .

                  If your toolpost is not big enough you could set it all up on an angle plate on the lathe cross slide and set the angle plate to the 91 deg . You would have to set up some fences or stops on the angle plate also

                  The hex bar holder becomes your indexing device as well ,

                  You could also leave the a few thou oversize and then set up a grinding wheel in the chuck and use that to give them a final sharpen up after hardening .

                  Ian.

                  #305597
                  John Reese
                  Participant
                    @johnreese12848

                    If I were making them I would start with a drill blank (already hardened). I would hard turn the end to get it to near the across-corners dimension, then grind the rest of the way using the work head on my t&c grinder. If you were in the US I would offer to do them for you.

                    #305598
                    John Reese
                    Participant
                      @johnreese12848

                      Some allen head screws ape punched rather than rotary broached. You can use a cut-off from an allen key as the punch. It helps to leave the head of the bolt a litle tall. A shallow counterbore matching the across-corners dimension of the key will aid in centering the punch. Machine off the extra height after punching. The pilot hole should be about 5% over across-flats dimension.

                      #305601
                      John Ockleshaw 1
                      Participant
                        @johnockleshaw1

                        Hello Sam, If you can get access to a spark eroder drill your workpiece to the a/f"s size then sink the hexagon in a few minutes.

                        Regards John

                        #305609
                        Sam Iveson 1
                        Participant
                          @samiveson1

                          Hi guys, thank you for all of your responses! This is exactly the reason I signed up!

                          Posted by Bazyle on 04/07/2017 17:52:16:

                          Cut a bit off an allen key and hammer it into a hole in some stock. Heat treat if necessary. Case harden if you used a modern tool as a starting point.

                          Alternatively modify the design so as not to use a socket head.

                          I had considered that however I was concerned that the finished hole may be a little tight given that (in my workshop anyway) allen keys seem to be slightly smaller than the nominal size. Presumably to allow clearance.

                          Also, making a rotary broach is a project I've been wanting to do for a while. It's as much about making the tool as it is about making the finished part!

                          #305610
                          Sam Iveson 1
                          Participant
                            @samiveson1
                            Posted by XD 351 on 04/07/2017 19:07:05:

                            You could make a jig up and mill them in the lathe .

                            All you need is some hex bar with a hole drilled and reamed through it to accept the blank broach and a couple of decent grub screws to lock it in , if your toolpost is big enough to accept the hex bar mount it up in there and set the toolpost to the 91 deg you need then mount a milling cutter up in the chuck .

                            That is a fantastic idea and one I think I'll give a go! It seems so simple – previously I was thinking of mounting rotary tables to the cross slide! Now that just seems silly!

                            #305613
                            Sam Iveson 1
                            Participant
                              @samiveson1
                              Posted by John Reese on 05/07/2017 01:30:41:

                              If I were making them I would start with a drill blank (already hardened). I would hard turn the end to get it to near the across-corners dimension, then grind the rest of the way using the work head on my t&c grinder. If you were in the US I would offer to do them for you.

                               

                              I'm fortunate enough to have access to a laboratory furnace that I use for heat treating stainless steels so hardening won't be an issue (although if I had access to a suitable grinder then I would probably consider this as an alternative).

                              And in response to your second post John, I found some literature online that recommended 3% greater than the nominal size so I already have a couple of drill bits on their way (although 5.15 was a bit of an oddball size so I ended up going for 5.1 given that the bolts will be aluminium and therefore a deeper cut hopefully won't damage the tool).

                              Edited By Sam Iveson 1 on 05/07/2017 07:48:23

                              #305614
                              Sam Iveson 1
                              Participant
                                @samiveson1
                                Posted by John Ockleshaw 1 on 05/07/2017 03:05:29:

                                Hello Sam, If you can get access to a spark eroder drill your workpiece to the a/f"s size then sink the hexagon in a few minutes.

                                Regards John

                                Hi John,

                                That is an interesting idea. I wonder if I can rig something up at home. I'll have a google and see. I know at work we sub con our spark erosion out to a company down south so I am led to believe that there is nowhere local that I can get this done. I do have a bench top power supply unit though that I have used for anodising titanium so if this is something that can be modified for the task then I'll definitely give it a go – to satisfy my curiosity if nothing else!

                                #305626
                                steamdave
                                Participant
                                  @steamdave

                                  Sam

                                  Why not have a go at making your rotary broach following the ideas of mike's workshop?
                                  http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/rotary-broaching.html

                                  Doesn't look too involved.

                                  Dave
                                  The Emerald Isle

                                  #305630
                                  Sam Iveson 1
                                  Participant
                                    @samiveson1

                                    Hi Dave,

                                    I did have a look at that before deciding on the one I've gone for. There were two reasons I chose not to go with that design. They were:

                                    1. A more complicated solution is always a better one! I did originally consider Mike’s design and even figured out a way that I could use it in a boring bar holder in my QCTP but it almost seemed too simple for my liking!
                                    2. More of a genuine reason was that the carriage on my mini lathe lacks rigidity and I suspect that at the very least using this in my tool post would loosen the gibs under the saddle which as any mini-lathe owner will know are a bugger to adjust! I also worried that excessive movement in the saddle would cause the tool to snap. A tool that could mount in the tailstock seemed by far the best choice for me.

                                    Here's a picture of where I am so far. All I need now to complete the tool is the mounting plate (which I will finish tonight) and the cutting bits. I've just ordered some hex bar stock to have a go at Ian's suggestion of making them in the lathe so I'll report back when I've had a go (probably next week).

                                    On a side note – does anyone have any suggestions fro removing marking blue? I think part of the problem is a relatively poor surface finish and I'm not overly fussed for this particular project but it would be good to see if anyone has any ideas. So far I've tried isoporyl alcohol and WD-40 which will remove the dye from high spots but won't touch any in the dips in the surface.

                                    dsc_0242.jpg

                                    #305653
                                    John Haine
                                    Participant
                                      @johnhaine32865

                                      Meths. I hope your manufacture of the broaches in the lathe works out, but I'd be willing to make them as it's on my "have a go" list anyway.

                                      #305656
                                      Antony Powell
                                      Participant
                                        @antonypowell28169

                                        Hi Sam

                                        Where are you ?

                                        I have a small spark erroder that does a perfect 1/4 hex hole

                                        Tony

                                        North Yorks

                                        #305798
                                        D Hanna
                                        Participant
                                          @dhanna35823

                                          Seeing we are having such cold winter weather here a bit west of Sydney (18deg C !) I thought I'd hang out in the nice warm workshop and make/post a simpler method of rotary broaching for home use. The test was the 5mm size which fitted on a piece of 1/4" HSS round. The form was ground on a D-bit grinder which has been very handy for this type of work. As I have one of those little Myford ML7 lathes in the corner of the workshop (it was a project a couple of years ago to save it from the scrapper!! A great little machine but rarely used in my workshop) I used that as the OP indicates it is Aluminium alloy he will be using so it didn't require a heavier machine.

                                          A short piece of 12mm silver steel (mild would do) was used to house the broach one end with a 1/4" blind hole. The other end has a No. 3 centre drill hole for centre support. The tailstock is offset to give about the 1 deg taper on the broach form but not more than the taper. The hole was drilled 5.1mm dia, as another poster suggested with a small 1mm deep counterbore of 5.8mm dia. to guide the point A bit of lube on the form and some on the centre, speed set at slow high range and presto, wind the tailstock spindle forward steadily and you have a nice 5mm hex for the key to fit. Suggest making the broach 5.1mm A.F.

                                           

                                          rotbroach1.jpg

                                          rotbroach1a.jpg

                                          rotbroach1b.jpg

                                          rotbroach2.jpg

                                          rotbroach3.jpg

                                          Edited By D Hanna on 06/07/2017 09:15:49

                                          #305842
                                          Sam Iveson 1
                                          Participant
                                            @samiveson1

                                            Hi guys and thank you for all of the responses!

                                            I'm based up in Aberdeen Tony so not too local but the offer is very much appreciated!

                                            I'm hoping to have a bash at making the cutters this weekend if I can spare the time so I'll let you all know how I get on.

                                            I love your idea D Hanna – that would have saved me a lot of time! Oh well, adjusting the tailstock on the mini lathe is a PITA anyway! That's a good suggestion too making the cutter slightly oversize. It would also allow for more scope for sharpening without reducing the AF dimensions beyond what is acceptable.

                                            #305846
                                            D Hanna
                                            Participant
                                              @dhanna35823
                                              Posted by Sam Iveson 1 on 06/07/2017 12:11:38:

                                              Oh well, adjusting the tailstock on the mini lathe is a PITA anyway!

                                              Only if you fiddle around with methods deemed to be "the only way"!! A DTI either held by it's tail or even a magnetic base attached to chuck face, rotate stylus around tailstock centre or bore of taper and read front to back until zero difference. Forget what reading is at top as "mostly" the tailstock will be a wee bit high unless it's worn through misuse. A couple of minutes should have it back in alignment. Trial cutting in most cases has whiskers on it unless the lathe bed has other problems!!

                                              Don't forget to post your results.

                                              Regards from OZ

                                              DH

                                              #306800
                                              Sam Iveson 1
                                              Participant
                                                @samiveson1
                                                Posted by D Hanna on 06/07/2017 12:42:27:

                                                Posted by Sam Iveson 1 on 06/07/2017 12:11:38:

                                                Oh well, adjusting the tailstock on the mini lathe is a PITA anyway!

                                                Only if you fiddle around with methods deemed to be "the only way"!! A DTI either held by it's tail or even a magnetic base attached to chuck face, rotate stylus around tailstock centre or bore of taper and read front to back until zero difference. Forget what reading is at top as "mostly" the tailstock will be a wee bit high unless it's worn through misuse. A couple of minutes should have it back in alignment. Trial cutting in most cases has whiskers on it unless the lathe bed has other problems!!

                                                Don't forget to post your results.

                                                Regards from OZ

                                                DH

                                                The main issue I have found is that once I've got everything centered and where I want it to be it has a habit of shifting when I tighten everything back down. Last time it took many cycles until I got it spot on. That being said, I was a whole lot less experienced last time I tried it. I think my dial indicator was purely used to stop my drawings blowing away if I'd left the shed door open!

                                                As for milling in the lathe – it worked a treat! I was in a bit of a rush and didn't entirely think things through so the dimensions were a fair bit off on the first one. I've not yet had a chance to try again but I'll be sure to post back once I do!

                                                #306817
                                                John Haine
                                                Participant
                                                  @johnhaine32865

                                                  To centre tailstock quickly. Put accurate centres in head- and tail-stock tapers. Bring TS up to HS trapping a thin pience of shim/razor blade/thin steel rule in between. Adjust TS until shim etc is perpendicular to lathe axis seen from above. Done. Simples.

                                                  #306829
                                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                                    Posted by Sam Iveson 1 on 12/07/2017 07:22:36:

                                                    Posted by D Hanna on 06/07/2017 12:42:27:

                                                    Posted by Sam Iveson 1 on 06/07/2017 12:11:38:

                                                    Oh well, adjusting the tailstock on the mini lathe is a PITA anyway!

                                                    Only if you fiddle around with methods deemed to be "the only way"!! A DTI either held by it's tail or even a magnetic base attached to chuck face, rotate stylus around tailstock centre or bore of taper and read front to back until zero difference. Forget what reading is at top as "mostly" the tailstock will be a wee bit high unless it's worn through misuse. A couple of minutes should have it back in alignment. Trial cutting in most cases has whiskers on it unless the lathe bed has other problems!!

                                                    Don't forget to post your results.

                                                    Regards from OZ

                                                    DH

                                                    The main issue I have found is that once I've got everything centered and where I want it to be it has a habit of shifting when I tighten everything back down. Last time it took many cycles until I got it spot on.

                                                    +1 for Sam's report that a mini-lathe tailstock may lose alignment when tightened down. I had the same issue with mine: it was easy enough to centre the tailstock, but hard to lock it in position.

                                                    I never bothered to try fixing it, but I think the cause was the block inside inside my tailstock being a bit rough. I reckon tightening up on an uneven block causes it to pivot slightly, up-down and right-left depending on the state of the adjusting screws. Although small, the movement is plenty big enough to cause trouble. I had to acquire the knack of compensating for unwanted movement as the lock point was approached.

                                                    If the issue is due to the individual finish of a particular component it explains why some people believe tailstock alignment is 'easy', while others have fun and games.

                                                    Dave

                                                     

                                                    Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 12/07/2017 10:28:12

                                                    #306833
                                                    Neil Wyatt
                                                    Moderator
                                                      @neilwyatt

                                                      I created a space for a brass gib, just rectangular, not angled, and it made the task much easier.

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