Cutting a worm?

Cutting a worm?

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  • This topic has 26 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 21 May 2019 at 22:27 by Michael Gilligan.
Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
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  • #410007
    Graham Rounce
    Participant
      @grahamrounce14492

      Hi. I would like a few wormscrews, say 4" long by 5mm dia, in brass, but all I can find are much shorter than that. Also some spurs with concave teeth so as to mesh as well as possible.

      I'm thinking that a piece of threaded M5 won't be ideal, and that a "squarish" rather than triangular tooth shape would be better, to avoid slippage of the spurs.

      I've Searched several times for the worms, but found nothing but highly expensive custom-made stuff.

      Can you get dies, similar to screw-cutting ones but with a different profile, for making them with?

      Thanks, Graham.

      PS: I only have a woodworking lathe.

      Edited By Graham Rounce on 19/05/2019 22:40:57

      #9672
      Graham Rounce
      Participant
        @grahamrounce14492
        #410011
        Paul Lousick
        Participant
          @paullousick59116

          Graham,

          I have not seen dies for cutting worm profiles, only for the standard triangular/square/Acme type theads. You have said that you only have a woodwork lathe, so I assume that the worm will be made from wood. (a photo / drawing / or description of what you intend to do would help).

          Threaded bar stock is available in triangular & square thread profile.

          Normal bolt thtrads can be used to drive a worm wheel but the thread on it should match that of the worm. A thread tap can be used to do this.

          Paul.

          worm wheel.jpg

          **LINK**

           

          Edited By Paul Lousick on 19/05/2019 23:30:50

          #410018
          Hopper
          Participant
            @hopper

            Never seen dies for worm threads. Acme thread form can be used for worms at a pinch but the pitch has to be a special to match a standard gear, so standard Acme threads will not work.

            You don't say what application you want to use your worm and wheel for but there are small worm gear sets on Aliexpress.com for just a few quid. Search for "worm gear" reveals a myriad like this LINK   in a wide variety of sizes and materials.

            At that price and with the astounding range they have available it's no longer worth messing about making your own in many cases.

             

             

            Edited By Hopper on 20/05/2019 01:21:47

            #410024
            John Haine
            Participant
              @johnhaine32865

              A normal involute gear will mesh correctly with a triangular worm profile such as a normal screw thread – after all gears are hobbed with such a profile, the thread profile is just an "involute rack". Your best approach is probably to use a standard tap as in Paul's photo. This effectively uses the tap as a rack hobbing cutter. You can make the process more controlled by turning a circular profile in the blank and "gashing" it with the appropriate number of teeth with a slitting saw to get the tap started. But you need to find just the right blank diameter, and setting up the right ratio on a dividing head may be challenging.

              #410026
              Ian P
              Participant
                @ianp

                Not sure why you would need a worm 4" long. Just to clarify your requirements though, the two parts of the gearset are usually called 'worm' and 'pinion'. Since the worm is engaging the periphery of the pinion (or worm wheel) it is usually quite short and I suspect unlikely to be cut with a die.

                I cannot imagine it would be practical to make your own worm and wheel on a woodworking lathe but ready made pairs are very easily available in vast range of sizes.

                The long wormscrew you mention would more usually be called a leadscrew.

                Ian P

                #410030
                Hopper
                Participant
                  @hopper

                  More detail of what the actual application is would help. (Presumably this is not another MI5 job where we would have to be killed if we learned the details before the patents were taken out etc.)

                  #410058
                  Neil Wyatt
                  Moderator
                    @neilwyatt

                    An involute form will be strongest, and acme worm will demand very weak teeth on the worm wheel to allow clearance.

                    Neil

                    #410063
                    Speedy Builder5
                    Participant
                      @speedybuilder5

                      Not quite what you asked for, but have you considered the worm and wheel off older style windscreen wipers. The worm is a flexible cable with a spiral spring on the outside of it.

                      #410091
                      Graham Rounce
                      Participant
                        @grahamrounce14492

                        Hi, and thanks for all the advice, and the terminology info. I didn't know you could grt square threaded rod! I hope we can keep MI5 out of this.

                        Enc is a pic of what I have in mind. It's supposed to be a compact puller. The two gears at the left cause the leadscrews to turn in opposite directions at slightly different rates, in turn causing the pinion to move along, slowly but powerfully.

                        I've drawn triangular teeth because it's easier, but square would be better. Steel, probably. If necessary, there could be pinions above and below the one shown, to help stop the screws bending.

                        In the end, I'd like to make it even more compact – 1/4 the size shown, if that turns out to be possible.

                        Btw, I just mentioned the woodworking lathe. I don't think it will be of much use for this

                        Thanks again,_20190520_135316.jpg

                        #410094
                        Ian P
                        Participant
                          @ianp

                          Based on the 4" length you mentioned earlier I now wonder what you mean by 'powerfully'?

                          If its the pinion that is doing the pulling, the force available will be restricted not only by the limited engagement of gear teeth but also by the fact that the two leadscrews will tend be spring apart.

                          There are many variations of differential pitch mechanisms, the one you have outlined is definitely one of the less efficient types.

                          A little about the what is it that you want to pull would help people offer a solution

                          Ian P

                          #410100
                          Graham Rounce
                          Participant
                            @grahamrounce14492

                            Oh. Well, it's just an idea. I'd like to see it in action, even so.

                            It started off when I saw a basque being tied (zig-zag ribbons down the back). Very decorative, but a lot of trouble! So I was idly musing about some kind of electric assist.

                            Now even I can think of other, more suitable, things than what I've described above, but I've become sidetracked by the interest of making one, which I haven't seen before.

                            That's all!

                            #410106
                            Anonymous
                              Posted by Graham Rounce on 20/05/2019 15:32:32:

                              It started off when I saw a basque being tied (zig-zag ribbons down the back).

                              I would have thought that close quarters manual assistance was the only possible solution. teeth 2

                              Andrew

                              #410115
                              Graham Rounce
                              Participant
                                @grahamrounce14492

                                Luddite! Lol

                                #410118
                                Bazyle
                                Participant
                                  @bazyle

                                  I was going to suggest stripping a car jack but that might now cause all sorts of unwelcome connotations.

                                  #410121
                                  Howard Lewis
                                  Participant
                                    @howardlewis46836

                                    Wouldn't you be better off with a winch (Note the spelling!) with two drums, so that both ribbons are pulled at the same rate and time?

                                    Another question; having tensioned the ribbons, how will you tie them, whilst still attached to the winch drums, to maintain the tension?

                                    As Andrew says, manual haulage may be the better option, for all concerned.

                                    Howard

                                    #410143
                                    Anonymous
                                      Posted by Graham Rounce on 20/05/2019 16:50:08:

                                      Luddite! Lol

                                      Obviously my mind is rather naughtier than yours. teeth 2

                                      Andrew

                                      #410183
                                      Graham Rounce
                                      Participant
                                        @grahamrounce14492

                                        Howard: I haven't worked out all (most of) the details, tbh, but yes, I'm sure a "winch" will be needed.

                                        Andrew: Yes, obviously. indecision

                                         

                                        Edited By Graham Rounce on 21/05/2019 01:12:30

                                        #410184
                                        Paul Lousick
                                        Participant
                                          @paullousick59116

                                          Graham,

                                          Without knowing exactly what you are planning to do, we are limited with making relevent suggestions and a woodwork lathe will be of limited use for making mechanical parts.

                                          "The two gears at the left cause the leadscrews to turn in opposite directions at slightly different rates, in turn causing the pinion to move along, slowly but powerfully". Instead of this arrangement, only use 1 screw with a nut and and a set of reduction gears (or pulleys and belt) to reduce the speed from the motor. This will also increase the torque applied to the screw. Small gearmotors with a built in reduction gearbox are available which could be coupled directly to the screw. (possibly a car windscreen wiper motor ?)

                                          Paul.

                                          Edited By Paul Lousick on 21/05/2019 02:07:01

                                          #410236
                                          Ian S C
                                          Participant
                                            @iansc

                                            With the two shafts geared together 99 to 100, then coupled together with the gear via the two worms I would guess that before one revolution it will jamb up. Shouldn't the gear ratio be 1:1?

                                            Ian S C

                                            #410265
                                            Nick Hulme
                                            Participant
                                              @nickhulme30114
                                              Posted by Ian S C on 21/05/2019 13:25:37:

                                              With the two shafts geared together 99 to 100, then coupled together with the gear via the two worms I would guess that before one revolution it will jamb up. Shouldn't the gear ratio be 1:1?

                                              Ian S C

                                              The gear is mounted on a moving chassis and is what moves and "pulls".

                                              If it pulls with any force what stops the two threaded rods bending apart? It will need some bearing supports, at least at the mid points, to prevent 6mm rod from bending.

                                              #410287
                                              Graham Rounce
                                              Participant
                                                @grahamrounce14492

                                                Yes, that's why I was thinking of square-profile threads, which should cause very little up/down bending of the screws? At the expense of more friction, maybe.

                                                Talking of which, Paul Lousick, where can you get round rod threaded with a square profile thread? I hope you didn't mean "square rod", like a rack?

                                                #410297
                                                SillyOldDuffer
                                                Moderator
                                                  @sillyoldduffer

                                                  Have you tried searching for ACME threaded rod Graham? Now that 3d printing is popular it's quite cheap in 8mm, 10mm and 12mm diameters. Here's an 8mm on ebay, £4.19 for 300mm long. (ACME is easier to make than true square and much more common.)

                                                  #410300
                                                  Michael Gilligan
                                                  Participant
                                                    @michaelgilligan61133
                                                    Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2019 18:33:22:

                                                    Have you tried searching for ACME threaded rod Graham? Now that 3d printing is popular it's quite cheap in 8mm, 10mm and 12mm diameters.

                                                    .

                                                    < Pedant Alert >

                                                    ACME threaded rod is not a metric standard [whatever is advertised on ebay] … The metric equivalent is called Trapezoidal.

                                                    MichaelG.

                                                    #410303
                                                    Anonymous
                                                      Posted by Graham Rounce on 21/05/2019 17:42:55:

                                                      Yes, that's why I was thinking of square-profile threads, which should cause very little up/down bending of the screws?

                                                      For a small worm wheel you'll have significant undercut of the teeth to mate with a square thread so the teeth are likely to break in bending instead.

                                                      Square threads are almost obsolete for good reason. They have three interference possibilities all of which are independent.

                                                      Andrew

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