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Off to the races!

This topic has 33 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 17 September 2017 at 09:37 by Dean da Silva.

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26 August 2017 at 22:51 #314109
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
I knew in time that I would have to start putting my money where my mouth is- so here is the start of the first locomotive in my undertaking, the Rose. Not the best rendering, it's only a mock up- but this one shouldn't take too long to complete!
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26 August 2017 at 22:51 #1628
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
26 August 2017 at 23:03 #314110
RRMBK
Participant
@rrmbk
Hi Dean.

Really nice to see you are doing this lovely little engine

I have built Rose and one of the real problems came with setting the valve events for the slip eccentric with the cylinder and valve chest mounted in the frame. The only way I was able to do it was to cut an oval slot in the frame adjacent to the valve chest and view the valve events through there. Also as I built the coal fired boiler. the smoke box mounting details and getting a good smoke box seal proved very difficult. Otherwise it is a great little engine but let down by the lack of an axle driven pump.

The 21/2 gauge association hold castings for most of the main parts on Rose if anybody decides to build based on your rework of the design.

Well done in your efforts and the first posting looks great.

If you want any more detail private message me

Kind regards

Brian K.
26 August 2017 at 23:12 #314111
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Posted by RRMBK on 26/08/2017 23:03:52:

Hi Dean.

Really nice to see you are doing this lovely little engine

I have built Rose and one of the real problems came with setting the valve events for the slip eccentric with the cylinder and valve chest mounted in the frame. The only way I was able to do it was to cut an oval slot in the frame adjacent to the valve chest and view the valve events through there. Also as I built the coal fired boiler. the smoke box mounting details and getting a good smoke box seal proved very difficult. Otherwise it is a great little engine but let down by the lack of an axle driven pump.

The 21/2 gauge association hold castings for most of the main parts on Rose if anybody decides to build based on your rework of the design.

Well done in your efforts and the first posting looks great.

If you want any more detail private message me

Kind regards

Brian K.

Brian,

I actually planned on donating the CAD files for all the 2 1/2" gauge locomotives I draft to the association. I did the best I could on the wheels, I understood that they were similar to the ones that are on the Petrolea. I think that I might build this little gem, it's a beautiful little locomotive, I like the way that Curly designed it and my machining abilities are… still in the learning phase. Thankfully I have clients that have built plenty of locomotives who are more than eager to help me out.

I'm glad you like it sir, it's nice to hear from someone that has built this little locomotive!
-Dean
27 August 2017 at 08:06 #314122
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Thank God there are parts of this model that are more… straightforward- I hope.

The instructions for the steam chest were lovely, and I think I did a great job impersonating the look of castings thus far (not sure how people feel about the wheels) but so far everything seemed to be going smooth.

THEN I REACHED THE CYLINDERS. The holes don't line up. The instructions about the porting are as clear as pond water.

You win tonight Curly, you old rascal.
I'll move onto another section, and address this one later.
27 August 2017 at 08:11 #314124
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Dean are you making any allowances for currently available materials over what Curly has on the drawings? For example in the UK and mainland Europe you can no longer buy sheet steel for the side frames in wire gauge thicknesses, you have to use the nearest metric and adjust the buffer beams and stretchers to suit.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary with the porting and passages, this was one reason I asked if you had any experience of making engines as it is the same basic method used on 90% of engines. There is a risk of assuming one thing if you are not sure what is in the text or on the drawing when Curly is actually doing something else

Edited By JasonB on 27/08/2017 08:21:51
27 August 2017 at 10:21 #314139
RRMBK
Participant
@rrmbk
Hi Dean & Jason

from memory I think Dean is right,the holes don't line up. And there are a lot of inaccuracies in this design /drawings. I remember having quite a faff about with my port settings as per my first post. I think some of the problem stems partly form the fact that Curly designed it originally as a spirit fired loco and added the coal firing as an afterthought. Also reading Hollingsworths book I have a feeling that this design is not one that LBSC actually made himself.

I think Jasons point is a good one as I had to make quite a few allowances for different material sizes when I built mine some years ago.
27 August 2017 at 19:06 #314201
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Posted by JasonB on 27/08/2017 08:11:07:

Dean are you making any allowances for currently available materials over what Curly has on the drawings? For example in the UK and mainland Europe you can no longer buy sheet steel for the side frames in wire gauge thicknesses, you have to use the nearest metric and adjust the buffer beams and stretchers to suit.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary with the porting and passages, this was one reason I asked if you had any experience of making engines as it is the same basic method used on 90% of engines. There is a risk of assuming one thing if you are not sure what is in the text or on the drawing when Curly is actually doing something else

Edited By JasonB on 27/08/2017 08:21:51

As far as the wire gauge sheet steel is concerned, no. I am not, I'm going off of the nearest imperial size. Part of the reason with this project I have found myself keeping a lot of notes is this exact reason- I would rather hold off on something unless I am absolutely sure I have the correct I have the correct impression about the way the part is to be modeled.

For example the frame holes lining up with the cylinders- I think it would be safe to assume that they could be made to align with the pattern for the cylinder, but that doesn't mean I wont make a note of it for later.

I know enough about machining to avoid making the impossible to mill/turn parts- but my experience with building models is lacking. Mostly because of finance.
27 August 2017 at 21:15 #314217
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Posted by RRMBK on 27/08/2017 10:21:03:

Hi Dean & Jason

from memory I think Dean is right,the holes don't line up. And there are a lot of inaccuracies in this design /drawings. I remember having quite a faff about with my port settings as per my first post. I think some of the problem stems partly form the fact that Curly designed it originally as a spirit fired loco and added the coal firing as an afterthought. Also reading Hollingsworths book I have a feeling that this design is not one that LBSC actually made himself.

I think Jasons point is a good one as I had to make quite a few allowances for different material sizes when I built mine some years ago.

I have decided to stick to commonly found imperial sizes- no wire thickness sheet metal will be found in any of my designs. Regarding threads, I'll be sure to have a nice, standardized list of threads I've used in lieu of the ones Curly used.

The second portion of this model (the one that concerns the valve/cylinder) falls into this ugly "I had to wing it" category. The inner frames do too, but I think that I did at least an acceptable job of relocating the holes to align with the cylinder.
27 August 2017 at 22:13 #314220
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
From what I could gather thus far:

The front two whole for the cylinders on the frame were located correctly, the rear holes were not. The cylinders attach to the frame using the holes in the corner, and the three holes in the centre are more or less there to help hold the whole assembly together sans the frame.

As I've mentioned, this second part of the build series has been sort of fired from the hip, eye balled, etc.
28 August 2017 at 04:47 #314244
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Well… everything seemed to be going okay until I put it all together and tried to make it move.

Then it went from "I don't know" to "***************************" (bad words)

The good news is that while its wrong, wrong, wrong, (partially by my doing) at least it's doing something.
1 September 2017 at 07:25 #314775
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
I have never had a boiler cause me as much of a headache as this one, the dimensions make zero sense, the article was about as helpful as an American government employee, I'm about 98% sure its wrong, or the drawings are wrong, or I am a complete and utter dunce.
1 September 2017 at 17:16 #314845
RRMBK
Participant
@rrmbk
Kind regards

Brian K. .What sort of problems are you having? Apart from no crown stays it looks a lot like the boiler I built.
2 September 2017 at 05:38 #314867
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
For now, I am going to just leave the boiler in the same sort of situation I usually leave my sister- alone.

(I don't actually have a sister.)

The tender is coming along nicely though!
2 September 2017 at 07:28 #314870
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
It may be worth pointing out that if you right click any of Dean's images and then select "copy image address" then paste that into your browser you will get a full screen image which looks even more impressive. Mac/Ipad users may need to do something different.
2 September 2017 at 07:39 #314871
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by JasonB on 02/09/2017 07:28:07:

It may be worth pointing out that if you right click any of Dean's images and then select "copy image address" then paste that into your browser you will get a full screen image which looks even more impressive. Mac/Ipad users may need to do something different.

.

On iPad … press and hold on the image until a pop-up appears, offering

| Save Image | Copy |

Select Copy, and then paste that address into a new browser tab.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/09/2017 07:41:49
2 September 2017 at 10:23 #314886
NJH
Participant
@njh
…. or indeed, on the iPad, just use two fingers on the image and " Stretch" it to fill the screen.

Norman
2 September 2017 at 14:06 #314917
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by NJH on 02/09/2017 10:23:07:

…. or indeed, on the iPad, just use two fingers on the image and " Stretch" it to fill the screen.

Norman

.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please Norman, but: Doesn't that just result in 'empty magnification' ?

MichaelG.

.

Edit: [answering my own question] … in the case of these images, which are only small anyway, there is no difference.

Edit: I had misinterpreted Jason's post and initally thought there was a hidden link to a higher resolution image.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/09/2017 14:27:53
2 September 2017 at 21:04 #314953
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Alright, little update here.

For the sake of retaining the few last pieces of sanity I have rolling around upstairs (and for practical reasons too) I have decided on the following:

1. The boilers as I draw them will not have internals, they will just be the outside shells. Reason being is the boiler standards have changed as I have been informed, and it I think it would be a bit silly to draw the whole thing just to have it altered. I'll leave that to the good folks I am sending these designs to.

2. Water pumps, valves etc. on the back heads of boilers really can be of any design that is compatible with the design. I'm more interested in the locomotive itself, it's design rather than little plumbing oddments.

3.The outlines of some of the parts such as the frame sides are kind of approximated. The drawings are not the best that i am going off of. I can try, but I can't guarantee that it is spot on when there is a lot of undimensioned radii.

4. I'll get as close as I can with the cast parts as well, but there is only so much I can do reasonably with them.

5. I DID check into Curly's stance on rivets. There is a reason they are all countersunk, he thought that they made locomotives look as though they had pimples.

Over all I would say the Rose is coming along well, I am looking forward to a locomotive called the "Bass" and the "Zoe" quite a bit. Now if I could find the 1800s era article on the original Ajax 2-2-0 that would be something really interesting- it was Curly's first locomotive after all.
2 September 2017 at 21:57 #314957
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Since I am at it, just to give everyone an idea of what I am up against and why I will be omitting some parts.

Here are the locomotives I will be drawing for sure:

0 Gauge
-Cracker
-Diesel Outline
-Minnehaha
-Miss Therm
-Mollyette
-Myrtle
-Bass
-Economette
-Netta

1 Gauge
-Miss Economy
-Bass
-Speedyette
-St. Hildas
-WD Stanier
-Amy
-Chingford Express
-Daisy Drummond
-Dyakette
-Ford Pacific
-Little Jack Horner
-Netta
-Zoe
-Mona

2.5" Gauge
-Economary
-Eva May (tender and tank)
-Bass
-Mabel Hall
-Nippy
-Sterling Single
-Victoria
-Ajax
-Annie Bodie
-Belle Stroudley
-Canadian Switcher
-Dairymaid
-FIRS 245 (Six Year Old's 4F)
-Judy
-Kingette
-Lady Kitty
-Mary Ann
-Netta (surprise surprise)
-Pansyette
-Pixie
-Simple Sally (there are FOUR versions of this one, thankfully it won't be hard)
-Talula

3.5" Gauge
-Dairy Maid
-Duchess of Swindon
-Ivy Hall
-Sister Dora
-Zoe
-Netta

5" Gauge
-Minx
-Netta

Now then, we come to the "special cases"
0 Gauge
-Bayer Garretts I&II: I really hope that there is enough to work on with these two! But they might have just been doodles that were published rather than full designs.

2.5" Gauge
-Lucy Anna: Published in Modelmaker in the US, in the 1920s. I really don't think that I will be able to track this one down, I pray that seeing other American locomotives of this variety I find a lot of commonality between them and can work from that. This one could actually TRULY be lost. Which I hope isn't the case.
-Liberation, LBSCR: I haven't the slightest idea about these two. I can't find really anything on them. Then again I haven't looked very hard.
-Cleopatra, Hollywood Annie: They might just be doodles, I hope that there is enough to work on.

Other
The earliest drawing I can find that Curly made was for a little tank engine, the Lylia. It's in 2" gauge, and honestly might end up becoming one of those "colour in the lines" projects where the outside is viable and the rest needs to be designed. It would probably end up being in 2.5" gauge when it was done.

Oh, and the reason behind all five Nettas?
Coolest group rendering ever.

Edited By Dean da Silva on 02/09/2017 22:03:41
2 September 2017 at 23:20 #314959
RRMBK
Participant
@rrmbk
I do remember reading an article on the O gauge Beyer Garrett but it wasn't very much detail. I will try and find it.

Seems like you are setting out a whole lifetime of work for yourself here!! but I'm sure there are many people who would benefit from the results of of your undoubted computer skills. I have tried to get into CAD but its completely beyond me and also I suspect many others of my generation. I hope that we all can give you support from this side of the pond in researching old articles etc.

Kind regards

Brian K.
3 September 2017 at 00:00 #314960
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Brian,

That tender was maybe a day worth of work if that.
I estimate I can handle a locomotive every two/three weeks give or take.

Something simple with oscillating cylinders? Couple days.
Seeing how Curly reused so much I am sure that it will go much faster than I anticipated, since I wont have to redraw castings.

I actually did a Cracker in two days.
3 September 2017 at 01:04 #314961
John Baguley
Participant
@johnbaguley78655
Hi Dean,

As Brian says, you are setting up for a lifetimes work with this!

You will find that a few of the designs were only very briefly described in the magazines – a GA drawing and maybe a boiler drawing if you are lucky. We do have copies of most of the construction articles though if you need them.

Re Lucy Anna – we have copies of the articles in Model Maker and also the drawings.

Re Liberation – I think this is a mistake in Brian Hollingsworth's book. Certainly I can find no trace of it and the article mentioned in English Mechanics does not exist.

Re LBSCR – I think this may be the Southern Region 0-4-4T (2396) which I think is the same loco as Victoria.

Hollywood Annie is an Americanised version of Annie Boddie and was briefly covered by 4 pages in Model Engineer.

Cleopatra was covered by a single page in ME and had just a GA drawing.

Hope that helps,

John
3 September 2017 at 01:35 #314962
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
John, you are literally, literally my hero.
I sent you an email, if you would like I would be more than happy to send you all the files. They might not be 100% perfect, but it's a running start. You might have to correct the dimensions for metric, make changes to correct some Curly-isms, but I've seen your CAD work, the Red Devil drawings you had were nothing short of AMAZING.

I think it would be safe to say that the Cleopatra is basically a Jenny Lind scaled down. I think that the Hollywood Annie, Cleopatra, Liberation and LBSCR are safe to cross off the list then- as either not complete locomotives or duplicates. I think that Liberation might be the WD Stanier come to think of it.

I really wouldn't say that I have a life time of work ahead of me with this, there are a lot of parts to this that can be either rescaled in CAD or where the parts would be the same between multiple models. I'd very much like to discuss the method I draft these designs with you, as I would like YOU Mr. Baguley to have copies.

Regards,
-Dean
5 September 2017 at 06:10 #315268
Dean da Silva
Participant
@deandasilva59410
Well, here it is.
It's starting to actually look like a locomotive, the coal fired tender is done, as is the part of the coal fired boiler portions I am doing. The spirits fired version comes next, as well as the alternate tender design with the straight sides as opposed to the curved ones.

To a degree I am starting to see how there are some details that are not mentioned but clearly needed such as the sheet work over the front beam in front of the fire box etc. to complete the locomotive aesthetically.
Thanks to the wonderful support of a British model engineer I've been in touch with, the next lost Curly design will come to life.

Stay tuned!
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