Squaring up a miling vice?

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Hi chaps,

I've started to have a go at milling over the last couple of days. These are my first attempts and I've hit a problem trying to square up some ally plate. The bed is level and the head is all trammed up and everything so I know that's good.

The problem is, it looks like the milling vice I bought is not square. The moveable jaw is sloping backwards slightly and what I found strange is that the fixed jaw had a piece of oily cloth or brade packed behind it at the top to make that jaw parallel to the moveable one (A cover-up if ever I saw one!).

After removing the packing, the fixed jaw is now perpendicular to the bed of the vice but the moveable jaw is sloping backwards due to the winding screw hole being drilled and tapped at an angle. This isn't right surely?

Can anyone advise how I can square up the moveable jaw please? I was thinking of trying to clamp it and re-mill the face, but it's ground and I'm not sure if it's hardened and not sure of a good way to tackle that. I only have HSS milling cutters so far.

Thanks,
Ed.

Here are some pics…

Approx 1.5mm gap at the top when the jaw bottoms are touching.

Checking the fixed jaw is square.

Shows the sloping moveable jaw.

Cloth or fibre packing removed.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Can you post a pic of the whole vice, going by the rather lightweight jaws and the notch in the top edge I would say its a drilling vice not a mill vice.

J

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Hi Jason,

It's this one:

**LINK**

Cheers,

Ed.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Ed,

With the best will in the world, that is NOT a milling vice, but at best a drilling vice. It is far to puny for the purpose you have in mind.

If I were to recommend a milling vice, of the cheap ones the Vertex K4 is one of the better ones without going all affluent on the price.

You can still use your paper weight as a milling vice but you will have to use a bit of round stock between the work piece and the moveable jaw. The better version that i use, even on my K4, is a piece of "D" shaped alloy with two small magnets in the flat face. The magnets are there to hold it in place so I only need the standard issue number of hands.

chriStephens

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Ed,

I fully agree with Chris this vice is not suitable for milling. In fact it is not suitable for drilling either as the fixed jaw is obviously faulty as you have described. My advice is to send it back as a reject for a refund and then buy a proper one.

Good quality second-hand British milling vices such as those made by Abwood, Jones & Shipman, etc.turn up on eBay regularly and if in good condition they are a better buy than any new Far Eastern one.

This is yet another example of very poor quality control on the part of a supplier of indifferent imported goods. As I have said several times before some suppliers rely on the good nature and skill of model engineers to put right such faults rather than deal with the problem at source. We should not tolerate this even if the product is a low price one it should at least function properly.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

I have the same, or very similar, vice and I dont even use it on the drilling machine. Actually I do occasionally but only as a large adjustable 'spanner' to stop the work spinning and dont actually tighten the jaws.

If you are doing light milling with small diameter cutters and you can spend time fiddling to get the work square then it might be OK. The best bit will be the elation you experience when you eventually get a true milling vice!

Ian

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Thanks guys, I'll keep an eye out for something British.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Ed, just today I have reworked a milling vice to true it up.

It came with the jaws perfectly aligned as they had been ground in situ. But, they had a left to right ramp of about 0.7mm. The inside faces were truly vertical but as it was ,it was no use to me at all. I Took off the two jaws and they measured exactly the same in all dimensions. But, where they seated there was a big burr at on end of the step that one sat on.

Two Hex . head screws secured the jaws to the body and the hole they went in, the seat was a conical shape and not flat and I also found that all four screws had eccentric heads. The first thing I did was to turn the heads and cut the seating face square. ( I will replace them later) Using a carbide endmill I seated the holes and then offered up the two jaws and tightened the screws, boy, it was all over the place. One was about 1mm higher that the other one. Using a parallel, I tightened the vice with an open gap and milled the two steps of the vice body to equal each other in height and also milled across the two top surfaces and the inside faces.

This of course meant that the mounting holes were now in the wrong place so I elongated the holes in each jaw by 2mm. Now they sit flat and when the jaws are closed they are equal in height.

It came with a rotary base and with the base keyed to the table and the vice square, the degree reading was a 1 deg. out so I re-cut a new line to indicate '0'.

It is obvious that there is no quality control and as a European vice would not be supplied like that.

I have a Gressel machine vice and it is excellent but is slightly too light for heavy work.

Clive

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

I once made the mistake of buying a cheap drilling vice like that.

There was no tommy bar, just the knurled grip on the handle, the first time I used it, the thing snapped in half across the base casting just with hand pressure alone.

I use a "Nippy" branded one now.

Phil

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I bought an abwood 4 inch milling vice last month from g and m tools in sussex and have to say i am more than happy with it, despite the fact it is probabily 30 or 40 years old it is perfect. If i were you thats what i would try to obtain.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I would seriously think about returning it to the supplier as it is obviously faulty from the factory .

It is not really worth trying to salvage as it is not designed for milling .

I hate when companies advertise drilling or milling as a use for cheap vices as it is misleading to the newcomer .

At a minimum the warco DH6 may get you by for light machining and at least the closing jaw has some lenght to it -also would make decent drill vice , the 5479 would be better although i have never liked swiveling vices – just one more thing that can move on its own accord when you least need it !

I use a vice similar to the 130-040-1100 or 1300-040-1200 stocked by ARC EUROTRADE (usual disclaimer ) but in 3 inch .

I can recommend the workshop practice series of books- particularily the ones written by Harold Hall if you are new to milling and wish to learn and once again usuall disclaimer applies .

You will see that for many operations you don't need a vice and a decent angle plate coupled with some toolmakers clamps and a few lengths of flat bar can get you into a whole lot of fun !

although if you have the table length a vice set up on one end permanently can be very convenient for many jobs

Usual disclaimer = i don't now and never have worked for or received any payments or gratuities from these suppliers or people- just a happy customer and believe that when you're onto a good thing share it !

Ian

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Got one of these (or similar) many years ago as part of a drill kit, now gave the drill away it was oriental and completely innacurate, have only used the vice looks similar to yours only used in the braising hearth for holding items when needed. It is now a blackish colour. as advised get yourself a decent engineering vice. Tip. If you want your vice to go in square every time you put it on your mill bed, get a bit of square bar stock, make sure it is the same width as your T Slot., true everything up, drill, countersink, tap bolt to bottom of vice so that everytime you put it on the mill bed it is true without messing about. I can go into detail and post a pic if anyone is interested. Will be going away fri untill Tues but will reply after that. Ed send this bit of junk back ask for a refund and use the money to purchase a good engineering vice.
Good luck and enjoy your workshop

Bob

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ed,

Just a different take on this for what it's worth. Harold Hall modified a cheap (£10) drilling vice by some basic machining and making a newer, beefier movable jaw. The mods he made to the vice enabled it to be used as a reasonable milling vice. He argued that with 4 fixing holes and a low profile he found it more than adequate for most milling that a model engineer would do. This is in his 'Complete Milling Course' book in the section where he discusses and actually questions the need for a milling vice – pp 86 on. For example, to square up some plate as you are trying, rather than using a vice, it would be better to clamp it to an angle plate fixed to the bed of the machine. You could also clamp it to the bed of the machine on raising paralells or similar and mill front and back at the same time, Turn the work 90º (check with an accurate square) clamp and mill the other edges. More than one way to skin a cat.. Harold speaks from quite a common sense no nonsense point of view.

Such a vice would not be suitable for heavy industrial work but for light work they can be more than adequate. I have one fixed to my milling machine and often use it in preference to my larger much more cumbersome dedicated milling vices for my modelling work and it is capable of some surprisingly accurate results. A toolmakers precision vice would be a nice aquisition, as would a Rolls Royce, but some of us have to be content with a Ford Fiesta.

Remember that even with a much more expensive vice, work which is required to be held vertically is usually clamped with a round bar between the moving jaw and the workpiece thus clamping it accurately against the true vertical of the fixed jaw to eliminate the possible effects of the jaw lifting out of parallel under clamping forces. Even expensive vices will have some lift, miniscule perhaps, but inevitable especially as it wears. An exapmle of the technique is here, it is a good way of compensating for just the problem you have encountered.

This is an image showing the technique which is described here (scroll down to bottom of page).

Don't get downhearted by the doomsayers  there are ways to work around problems without throwing money at them and it's more satisfing when you succeed .  Of course if you are going into production or paid work it may be a completely different kettle of fish.

Best regards and enjoy,

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 04/10/2012 08:17:50

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I'v got a similar one that came with the Black & Decker drill press attachment, and even that has a better/ heavier moving jaw. The jaw could be replaced with a block of steel, possibly only allowing 1 1/2" to 2" movement, and a plate underneathof similar size, and the underside of the slot may need a scim with the mill . Ian S C

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Terry,

If you read my post again you will see the improved version of your round bar mentioned. The magnets really do help by holding the bar to the movable jaw, allowing you to operate the clamp whilst tapping the work down on the parallels with a rubber hammer.

For any beginner reader, when tapping the work down on to parallels you will find that any form of metal hammer tends to bounce the work of the parallel. From experiments carried out with all the different types of knockometer that i have, the best is a rubber one. I found it to be even better than a commercial "dead blow" hammer and much cheaper too, as it is made from a rubber door stop! Any form of metal, even a copper one, tends to send "shock" waves through the work piece which then lifts the work. I dare say a new copper hammer is soft enough but the head soon work hardens while the hide end, from my experience, is too soft.

Perhaps another tip for beginners using a milling vise, if you have one permanently bolted to your mill table don't put it in the middle. If you put it towards one end a. you will have room to mount other devices at the other end and b, if after everytime you have to remove it, to fit larger work, you put it back at the other end of the table you will even up the wear on the lead screw and gibs. Putting the vice bang in the middle causes all the wear will be in a small range only. Although there many ways of holding work on a mill you will find that a vise is by far the most convenient., once you learn to hold work squarely that is.

chriStephens

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement, and for the great ideas and links. I did try using the round bar technique but still had some 'features' in the finished dimensions. All part of the learning process I suppose. I'll see about getting a copy of Mr. Hall's book as well.

Thanks again,
Ed.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Chris,

I did read your post thoroughly but I thought that a picture and reference to some good advice on other websites might be useful for a beginner so I took some time to do that. Sorry if I appear to have trodden on your toes, it was unintentional, merely trying to be helpful.

Hi Ed,

I usually buy these books from Amazon, usually a good bargain there.

Best regards

Terry

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Terry, my dear chap,

You did not tread on any toes and your picture explained better than words could ever do.

Re toes; I always wear steel toe caps, both physical and metaphorical.

chriStephens

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Ed, I won't ad to your misery with further criticism of your prized vice.

Take heart! I have an even worse vice made from 'monkey metal'; that came 'free' with a drill press – the same type someone converted into a tapping stand.

I never used it in anger, so grotty I put it in the car to take to the tip, but throwig away atool goes so much against the grain, I can't go through with it!

Neil

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ed, I have one of these, it is not perfect but it is not nearly as bad as yours.

Below is a photo of the underside of mine showing the block that holds the movable jaw down onto the vice bed to prevent the lift that yours looks as if it is doing. Yours may or may not the same, but you will notice in the photo two small holes diagonally to each other between the two cap head bolts. In these holes are two socket grub screws, which can be adjusted against the cap head bolts to give a minimum amount of lift in the movable jaw.

I've found the best way to adjust these, is to first back off the two grub screws and then nip the two cap head screws so there is no movement in the jaw. You can then back off the two cap head screws, say one flat at a time on each screw and then tighten the two grub screws. Continue this sequence until the jaw moves without binding and without to much slop either.

The underside of mine needs to be dressed on the mill, because the front end measures 15.11 mm while the back end is 14.9 and as it is adjusted at the moment, the movable jaw gets too tight at about 13 mm from closing. I have filed off the high points but it really needs milling parallel. When! I get round to doing that, I'll probably make a new block to cover a wider area of the underside.

I've only every used this for drilling, which it seems to be OK with, I didn't buy it with any intention of using it for milling.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 05/10/2012 00:28:28

[Robert Dawes 1Participant @robertdawes1]

Can I recommend the following procedure which I read in ME or MEW. Drill and tap a couple of holes in the top face of the moving jaw mine are 5/16 BSF. Put the work in the vice in the usual way but do not fully tighten the vice. Use one or both of these holes with a suitable bolt or bolts to push DOWN the workpiece with clamp and packing or a mini jack of the sort often used to clamp things down on the milling machine table.This does two things. It pushes the work down on to the vice floor and raises the moving jaw up as far as it can go. Next, finally tighten the vice in the normal way. The next bit is the clever bit. UNDO the clamps and remove them. This gets them out of the way of whatever procedure comes next. Nothing moves because nothing can. The work has been forced down onto the vice floor. The moving jaw can't move up and tip the work because it has already been pulled up as far as it can go.

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Thanks Neil, Nick and Robert, I must admit I didn't notice the two small grub screws and will investigate over the weekend.

I'll probably invest in a proper vice at some point just for the confidence and safety factors, however it would be good get this one up to a better standard even if it's just for use as a drilling vice. I don't think I could return this vice as it was bought quite a while back.

Speaking of standards, it would be great if anything imported into the UK had to have a British import standard of some type. It was always the case for electrical goods when I was a sparky and I'm pretty sure it still is.

Regards,
Ed.

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

In following this thread I felt that Warco should be taken to task for advertising the vice as a drilling/milling vice, with such a ludicrously narrow moving jaw there is no way it should be advertised as such. A drilling/very light milling vice, just maybe. I chose though at that time not to contribute.

Had I have done, I would also have suggested that if the vice cannot be returned, that increasing the length of the jaw's keep plate, especially in front, would make a significant improvement. Of course, that would not correct the angular error that Ed mentions.

However, now having seen, Nick's photograph I am confident that a longer jaw, especially in front is worth doing, even to the point where say a few millimetre projects from the front of the vice when fully closed.

The method of adjusting the fit of the jaw is new to me and if replacing the keep plate I would suggest four screw as the two screw will be tending to tilt the plate diagonally.

You do not tell us Ed the size of the milling machine you have, but whilst the advice given to purchase a conventional vice, made by a reliable manufacturer, is very valid for a larger machine, it is unlikely to prove suitable If you have one of the mini mills or slightly larger.

A conventional vice will swallow up the machine table and consume a lot of the head room, table to spindle distance.

Harold

Edited By Harold Hall 1 on 05/10/2012 09:56:54

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Ed

Some good advice and a good decision on your part. The idea of a "British Import Standard" is a nice one but I doubt it will happen. Even if it did there would, no doubt, be a cost to it ( which would be added to the price of the goods)

As with all things there is a link between price and quality – I don't think you can really expect much in the way of performance from a £23 milling vice – in my old J&L (2009) catalogue the cheapest small sized (100mm) milling vice is £200 ranging up to £500 !

Chris recommends the Vertex vice and I bought one of these, many years ago, with my mill from Warco and find it quite satisfactory. The previous suggestions of a S/H vice from ebay or the like might be OK butthey are often very big and the postage is likely to be more than the cost of your existing vice. That's not unreasonable – milling vices should be solid and heavy!

Do read some of Harold Hall's books/ articles for some ideas of how to progress.

Cheers

Norman

P.S.

While writing this I see Harold has responded – as usual he is right on the money – I think I'll go back to bed!

N

 

Edited By NJH on 05/10/2012 10:03:14

Edited By NJH on 05/10/2012 10:06:15

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