Milling machines – western-made s/h recommendations up to £2k

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Thanks Paul – there is an omnimill on ebay for £1395 but doesn't have the original handwheels, horizontal milling arm, and seems to be generally a bit worse for wear…

[Andrew FirmanParticipant @andrewfirman12129]

A couple of Centecs advertised on another site. But ad was posted on 1st April……

For Sale: Centec model A and Model B milling machines

Thu 1st Apr '21

Advert ID: 39645

Machines (Large Tooling)
Used (Correct working)

Details:
I bought these 2 machines with the intent to rebuild them, but I have too many other projects to sort out, so they need to go. Both machines are 3ph, and came from a BSC research workshop. both machines have overarms and arbors, the 2B has power feed and a vertical head, and is on the Centec base unit. The 2A has a heavy steel bench for it, made of solid round bar so heavier than the miller. Both machines are bolted to pallets, so could be winched into a trailer or van. These are collection only. this site does not like the pictures I have so email for them.
The 2A is £300 and the 2B £650.

Terms:
Price: Multiple
Collection Only

Contact:
Chris Gunn
Kettering
nn15
UK
01536 482581

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

A non original hand wheel on the knee is a plus point. The original hand wheel for the knee was the same size as the others but that makes it very hard work raising and lowering the knee. Previous owners of mine fitted one about the twice the size and that was a real saviour when cutting the final drive gear of my half size traction engine! The bigger hand wheel made it much, much easier with over 70 teeth, there was a lot of handle winding! Nearly £1400 sounds optimistic in terms of price for a doggie one! I gave £800 for mine in 2017 I think it was, it's not pristine and has a few battle scars in the table but nothing drastic and a bit of wear but then it's almost as old as me! Still capable of turning out an accurate job though. HWM prices tend to be at the gold plated end of the scale so £1600 should get you a very nice one from a private sale.

Paul.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I'm hoping to find out a bit more about the Tom Senior (I've sent some questions) and the Omnimill on eb*y – but I see HMW also have a 2B with a horizontal arm and a vertical head listed – they have suggested £2200 delivered for the pair – does that feel about right for the money?

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

If that Centec 2B advert above is genuine and not an April Fools joke, then £650 sounds to be a real bargain.

Phil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It does say they were bought as projects to rebuild, depends if William is willing and able to do whatever may be required to get it upto usable condition.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

£2200 sounds a bit rich for me! Centec's are good machines I believe but I have never had one. I believe from what I have read they are improved by a riser block. My personal choice from the two is the one for £650 even if it needs a bit of work you won't go wrong if you have the skills. For £2200 you can have a new Warco I believe ready to rock with a year's warranty!

Paul.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

The £650 one is gone unfortunately

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

William, you've not told us if you have the mechanical abilities to refurb an old machine, you could get a new warco vmc for £2150.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Well I think for £650 I'd be happy to learn as I went – I'd like to think I'm mechanically inclined but the majority of my experience so far has been on my old MGB car and my Myford ML7.

I'm really just not sure about a far east machine as per the main premise of this thread but for the sake of completeness how would a Warco VMC (or equivalently priced mill £1500-2000) match up against the Bridgeport Series I, Tom Senior, Omninill, Centec 2B, etc. ?

Edited By William Ayerst on 05/04/2021 22:13:26

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

When you said that omnimill on ebay wasn't very good condition, it just gave me the impression your expectations for an old machine costing £1200 were maybe unrealistic, I thought it was pretty good condition, far better than something with paint sloshed over it, making it look good from a distance, you wouldn't believe how some people paint things without properly disassembling, painting over nuts, bolts, screws, might look good in an eBay pic, in reality just extra work scraping it all off.

Warco vmc is comparable to your list in size, apart from the Bridgeport, I thought you ruled that out?

Moving a big machine like that will cost £400-£700 of you budget depending on distance.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Thank you Pete – really I was just curious for comparison, if it were vastly superior to the equivalent older mills in addition to being roughly the same cost then it may be a different story – but if it is much the same albeit with a guarantee then that makes sense.

If the HMW Centec 2B with the vertical head is £2200 delivered, which if you're telling me the moving cost of an equivalent machine is likely to be in the region of £3-400+ doesn't seem an outrageous surcharge given the suggestion that the Centecs are better than the Seniors (in general)? Much to think about there.

I guess I need to clarify – I've done some domestic wiring in running new sockets, fiddling about with plugs – but nothing like rewiring a 3ph motor to a delta pattern, fitting VFDs or reversers. If I buy one of these older machines, I'm going to need to learn that also, aren't I?

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

William

I was in the same position as you not too long ago. Similar budget looking for a mill of similar size and like you I prefer British made stuff. I try to avoid Chinese machines if possible because in general I've had bad experience with them.

However in the end I bought a Myford VMC which I believe is Taiwanese made. The overall quality of the machine isn't bad at all. If the Chinese versions are as good I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. Infact I actually plan to buy another in the future.

So that leads us on to 2 more options. The warco VMC and the Chester 626. if you could get the chance to inspect either of these machines you might satisfy your concerns over build quality.

Considering they are just over £2k new with warranty, delivery and you get to choose spindle, phase and metric or imperial versions they begin to look pretty favourable.

Worth investigating.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by William Ayerst on 05/04/2021 22:09:03:

…..

I'm really just not sure about a far east machine as per the main premise of this thread but for the sake of completeness how would a Warco VMC (or equivalently priced mill £1500-2000) match up against the ….. Centec 2B …. ?

……

Weelll, I, personally would say, for the 2B, ‘very well’ – but only if the condition is OK.

The Warco would certainly have shiny new paint!

The 2B may need some fettling, need wear to be taken into account (depending on the precision required, of course) in use. It would likely have a less ergonomic operational set up. The table is a little smaller and only has two T-slots – but who cares as long as it is actually large enough?

The Warco offers more choice, at time of purchase, and is fitted with modern-day safety requirements. Lubrication appears to be easier (less manual). The head can be turned in the horizontal plane (2Bs with a tilting table are rare and generally more expensive).

The 2B has 6 speeds by gearbox, versus more by belt changes on the VMC, and a lower top speed (easily increased by VFD (3 phase) – which would offer variable speed as well – or by changing pulleys. The warco motor is quoted as Watts – but I don’t know the true comparison with the original one horse power fitted to the 2B as it may depend on how efficient the warco motor might be.🙂

All these are available as comparisons

Finally, the 2B is both a vertical and horizontal mill – all in one machine, with little downside of the usual multi-purpose machines.

Personally – and I am biased – a good 2B suits me, particularly from the price aspect.🙂. I’ll not be swapping mine, in the near future, for a VMC.

I already have variable speed, 1.2HP, power feed on the long travel, more head space (with the riser block) and DRO. All these would be extras on the VMC. Also, better the devil you know than the devil you don’t!

Edited By not done it yet on 06/04/2021 10:50:27

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by William Ayerst on 05/04/2021 22:09:03:.

…

for the sake of completeness how would a Warco VMC (or equivalently priced mill £1500-2000) match up against the Bridgeport Series I, Tom Senior, Omninill, Centec 2B, etc. ?

…

I suspect my point about 'condition is everything' may not have sunk in. Would you buy this Rolls Royce?

In good working order, low mileage etc, it would sell for about £30,000 That one is scrap, worth about £50, plus the value of any spares that can be saved from it. Could be restored, but probably more time and money than it's worth unless done as a hobby.

Same problem with old machine-tools. Model and maker matter less than the machine's history. Many are in good order, others are scrap only, with all shades in between. Buying from a dealer will be more expensive because they have to make a profit and give some sort of warranty. Buying blind, the warranty may be more important than machine make or model, because there is no consumer protection in private sales! If an unscupulous private seller dumps a lemon on you, you might be stuck with it, with no chance of recovering your money. Private sales depend on good will, and there are naught people happy to dish up old tat and sell it on ruthlessly. We've had a few examples highlighted on the forum where machines didn't exist at all. Therefore, best to inspect secondhand before purchase, to make sure it's worth the money. Playing this game how good a second-hand machine was when new is almost irrelevant in my view.

A new Chinese hobby Mill will be cheaper, less trouble and perform better than a clapped out old banger, but it won't be as solid or smooth as an ex-industrial machine in good order. Hobby equipment is lightly built down to a price, and not made to do sustained hard-work. Industrial machines are made to do hard-work, and tend to be much heavier, which is good until you have to move it! They may also have difficult power requirements, such as a mixture of 3-phase and single-phase motors, and spares can be pricey. Keep in mind machines made to do hard work may have been flogged for a few decades and could be seriously worn out.

Of the machines listed, my preference would be for a Bridgeport, except it's a shade too big for my workshop. Not because the other mills are inferior, but the Bridgeport design happens to hit several sweet spots, making it particularly attractive for moderate workshops. Bridgeports aren't perfect, and I'll leave it to a Bridgeport owner to explain why they're popular, briefly big, but not too big, good rigidity and accuracy, plus well-placed controls and well laid out for general purpose work.

Always good to question requirements. If the plan is to enjoy British traditional machinery without commiting to anything else, refurbishing old machines is a worthwhile hobby in itself. If the goal is to start work immediately on light Model Engineering, then new Far Eastern is probably the best bet because they have consumer protection, can be sized to fit the space available, won't have funny power requirements, and the customer doesn't have to sort out delivery. I used to say machines were available off-the-shelf, but at the moment all suppliers look to be short of stock and may not have what you want. If the workshop is intended to tackle a serious commitment to biggish work, then it's worth looking carefully for what's needed on the ex-industrial market. Luck and where you live plays a part; but perhaps more important is your ability to assess machine tools and fix faults. Starting out I wasn't confident I could do that, and I bought Chinese to learn on, with the idea of upgrading when I knew the ropes. As it turned out the Chinese gear does all I need, and I haven't bothered to change it.

Dave

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Dave, thank you so much for that exhaustive reply – it is very informative and I will ponder your points at length.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Doing some quick calculations between the Tom Senior, 2B and a Warco VMC (imperial, non-DRO), and annoyingly the VMC comes out as superior in basically every aspect and once delivery/collection is factored in, the cheapest. This is something I'm going to have to think about more.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

My choice would be Bridgeport,Elliott 00 omnimill,Harrison,Tom senior, All good machines that were used in UK industry and some still are, A friend had a Centec,I thought it was just too small never saw one in industrial use,would be ok for instrument making,or making a small loco. The standard Senior m1 with the knuckle head does have limited space under the spindle ,as I found when I had one ,i got mine from a friend who made plastic mould tools at home as a business,he replaced this m1 for a Senior m1 size machine with the small universal head which has a quill though only a 2mt spindle,This was in the 1970s during the 3 day weekand I went up to yorkshire to collect it new fromSeniors,that was an interesting visit and typical northern weather. He warned me that he found the capacity under the spindle to small,When got the new mill ,the small head mounted closer to the top of the machine gave more clearance ,he also bought at the same time a senior vice which was lower than an Abwood. I found that with the Senior I was forever changing my set ups as I was always running ot of space, though it was good for machining parts on an Allchin.I had no problems at all with Senior and it was a well built machine and no problems. A house move meant I had lots of room and some years later I sold the M1 and replaced it with the other extreme an Elliott Milmore at 1,75 tonnes and 50 inch table, this had capacity to cope with most jobs though it had a couple of faults, the spindle was only 30int a 40int would have been better,and the double swivel of the head would loose its tram,i used it comercially for 25 years, though it was backed up by an Adcock and Shipley universal mill , a impeding house move meant the mills had to go,this all fell through so I thought about getting a smaller English mill then a neighbour gave me an Elliott omnimill ,which had a slotting head and I aquired the universal head plus added electronic speed control on the vertical as my work meant I needed a lot lower spindle speed.this 1963 machine had come from a toolroom ,I made a stiffener for the vertical head which vastly improved the performance . the 00 has one big advantage ,it has real capacity,If anyone buys one ensure that it has the correct 3MT horizontal spndle ,they are rare nowadays, easier with later machines as they had 30int horizontal spindles. I did once have a mill drill (ex Taiwan) absolute rubbish for milling but was a very good drilling machine with 3 mt spindle. My friend who bought the Senior new, was a work colleague who always wanted to go out on his own as soon as he could afford one he had a Bridgeport ,he just loved them,he always said they are good ,accurate, and all the controls come easy to hand,enabling him to keep up a high work rate.wth a vice ,angle plate,rotary table set up on the table, along with a decent Colchester he could earn a good living.So there is my experience,go English,dont go after cheap rubbish,and by a machine that suits ones work.There are too many posts on here from modellers who have trouble with far eastern machines and always trying to get spares.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Agree with Nigel. I currently have a choice of mills, mate's Bridgeport with DRO, my Omnimill or a little Chester mini-mill (same as Arc small machine basically, I think they have it as the X1). My go to is the Omnimill, I don't think I would have got away quite so easilly cutting the gears for my half size TE on the Bridgeport, the horizontal spindle on the Omnimill made them easy. That said I did the crank splines on the Bridgeport as the longer table saved me making an extended sub table for the Omnimill and the DRO made life easier. Generally however I find the Omnimill more versatile like tonight where I milled a slot across the end of some round bar (handle for the reversing lever) clamping it to the table in vee blocks and using the ER chuck in the horizontal spindle then swapped to the vertical spindle to mill the corresponding register on the reversing lever with it clamped flat on the table. All done inside an hour. For me the VMC just wouldn't cut it. However it really depends what you are intending to do! If you are not bothered how long it takes and are prepared to be creative with set ups and take light cuts you can probably do all you need for a small TE or 5" loco on a lot smaller machine than the VMC. I did machine the entire water pump for the 6" engine on the X1 size mill and the myford 7, it was clearly really too big for the mill but with patience it is possible. When I was looking for a larger mill I did actually look seriously at the Warco turret mills but the Omnimill found me first and I am very glad it did. I won't be parting with it willingly any time soon!

Paul.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

I suspect you may find the 2 axis swing and tilt clamped head on the VMC a bit wobbly.

We have VMC owners on here, have a read of their posts.

Edited By Dave Halford on 07/04/2021 11:51:34

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 07/04/2021 11:38:45:

I suspect you may find the 2 axis swing and tilt clamped head on the VMC a bit wobbly.

Are there any VMC owners out there?

Yes I have had a Myford model VME [VMC] for 20 odd years at home & really like it after having used nearly every type of milling machine in industry. I love the VMC's for their versatility & haven't really found it 'wobbly' but the basic mechanical truth of mills is 'rigidity & versatility' do not sit well together. So for my needs a 'turret' mill as they used to be called is my machine of choice.

Tony

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

I'm the same as Tony on the VMC type mill. I've got a Myford VME which is just slightly larger than the VMC, chosen because of its R8 spindle which suits all the tooling I have from when I had a Bridgeport. I've used all manner of mills in industry and am very pleased with the VME which I've had for around 8 years. I had an omnimill at one time but never got on with it, not a bad machine I just found the vertical head a bit springy. My favourite mill ever was a Thiel 158 but they cost a fortune with all the accessories and weigh a ton, you need to be Charles Atlas to change the various tables! My friend builds large scale traction engines on a Warco VMC with no problems, he's even got a huge riser block under the head which looks wrong to me, but it seems to work for him..

Dave

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Good evening all,

After mulling over this, I think it's slowly coming down to what is available at a given time – there being both benefits and drawbacks to each of the machines under consideration. I want to buy ONE mill that will last me the rest of my life!

Recently, I have seen a Tom Senior M1 in excellent condition with all the mod cons except the S-type quill head. It is about the same price as a Centec 2B with a Mk3 quill head.

The only thing that is making me a little nervous is the clearance on the M1, with the knuckle head. I make it about 9" to the table, 7" to the bottom of the machine vice – reduced down another 2" with a collet chuck installed – a working space of about 5" – and that's without any cutters, boring bars, drills, tapping guides, etc. installed. Am I able to bore a 5" gauge loco cylinder on an M1? Ream a 1/2" hole?

Am I going mad here? That seems SO SMALL!

If I have to do boring/reaming operations using the horizontal mode, that's even more of a pain that the lathe…

Edited By William Ayerst on 29/06/2021 22:57:31

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Yes William, that's why that style of vertical mill tend to be cheaper, not as versatile, if you definitely want a used British machine, a vertical Harrison has a good reputation, no quill though, but decent daylight between spindle and table, also keep your eye out for 'Marlow milling machines' they were built for a similar purpose to the Boxford Vm30 I own, education/light industrial, simple well made machines ideal for the home workshop, I think some had a quill.

The Viceroy is another similar machine, worth taking a look and keeping your options open.

Hope that's of some help.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Well, there's a vertical Harrison on evilbay at the moment that I have considered but it's in metric. With regard to new gear I did reach out to Warco and they have no intention of stocking the imperial/R8 version of their VMC ever again…

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