Aircraft General Discussion

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Bob. I was going to post exactly the same thing. The heat haze from the jet pipe looks more like an engine at idle to me.

If you follow the videos and photos down, he doesn't seem to be mushing, more like nose down until the last few seconds, as if he's trying to increase speed and/or spin the turbine. With a few feet more altitude, he'd have made it to the grass on the airfield. I'd say he was deliberately avoiding buildings but didn't have the altitude to clear the road.

Ian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 25/08/2015 16:28:55:

I do not think he ejected

.

According to the gentleman interviewed on the first BBC News report I saw: … Privately owned aircraft are not fitted with [functional] ejector seats, because of the cost and complexity of periodic inspection and certification.

A later report mentioned that the Recovery Team was waiting for safety clearance; because they could't go in until the ejector seat had been "checked"

MichaelG.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I think ex military jets are required to have them fitted and in working condition never mind the fact you'll have great difficulty getting out of the thing if things go pear shaped.

Bob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Bob,

… So do [or did] I

… Which is why I emboldened the "source"

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … I have just found this … page 17 is relevant.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/08/2015 18:28:22

[JAParticipant @ja]

The Folland Gnat that crashed at/near Oulton Park a few weeks ago, according to media reports, had its ejector seat immobilised. Evidently the seat was made by Folland, not Martin-Baker, who ceased supporting the maintenance of their seats years ago (the company is still in business). Obviously a manufacturer will only support obsolete parts such as ejector seats and aero-engines for a lot of money.

I think the Hunter T7 was fitted with the 200 series of Avon which was a far easier engine to handle than the early Avon. Also the ejector seat may have been an early design without the capability of safe ejection at low altitude and speed.

JA

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I visited the new AEROSCOPIA museum at Toulouse France where there are 2 Concordes. A super visit for those interested with an optional visit to the Airbus factory where you can see the final assembly of the A380. But what are the U/c skids shown in the pictures ? Too low for operational use ? Too complicated for towing ??
BobH

 

Edited By JasonB on 26/08/2015 08:01:06

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If thats on the Concorde then maybe as it spends most of its time standing and not in use they have some method of taking the weight off the tyres? Or it fits onto skates for easier moving about.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Could the gizmo on the Concord(e) main wheels be what they fitted after the crash to help prevent runway debris being thrown up and into the fuel tanks?

And. I'm not familiar with the laws regarding slander/libel, but did anyone read the comments attributed to the 71 year old ex-RAF instructor about the Hunter pilot. Quite nasty I thought.

Ian

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I did read that comment and did think it was a bit below the belt even nasty, **LINK** it is impossible to fly a display within the confines of a runway, I just hope the pilot recovers as that will give the best answer as to exactly what happened. If you look at a map the fact he flew over the road was unavoidable, we do not know the cause of the crash so it is just speculation at this stage.

The red Arrows which are probably the most professional display team in the world have to fly well out side the confines of the main display area, when they have been displaying locally it is not unusual for them to fly over our house and we do not live in a field.

Bob

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 25/08/2015 18:04:46:

I think ex military jets are required to have them fitted and in working condition never mind the fact you'll have great difficulty getting out of the thing if things go pear shaped.

Bob

I had a close look at some fighter planes from 50+ years ago when I was at the Scottish air museum in East Fortune a couple of years ago

The ideal pilot appears to be about 5 feet tall with a padded bum for the steel tubes/canvas seat and 12 inches wide across the shoulders

It must have been murder on long missions and pulling those high G forces against a steel frame

Getting in looked difficult, getting out after an hour or two locked in that position at 3-400 mph looked almost impossible

Edited By Ady1 on 26/08/2015 11:38:17

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I remember reading something along the lines that pilots kept getting back injuries from ejector seats. They found that the seats were so uncomfortable the pilots were using cushions. The cushions allowed the seat to accelerate before whacking the pilot's but and damaging their spines.

Neil

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Don’t see how anyones choice of headwear or haircut relate to their piloting skills…

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

About ejection seats, read Andrew Johnson's posting at the top of this page.

I was unsure of whether the pilot ejected or not as I only saw a couple of news clips, but the injuries are quite possible on ejection, and survival without ejecting a miracle.

Ian S C

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2015 12:29:51:

I remember reading something along the lines that pilots kept getting back injuries from ejector seats.

.

When I arrived at Loughborough in 1968, to study Ergonomics, they were just finishing a trial on Ejector Seats. … The rig was a drop test; and deceleration was provided by 'tearing apart' the stitching between two layers of Seat-Belt webbing [this apparently gave the 'passenger' the g input equivalent to ejection]. … Needless to say, I avoided volunteering for that.

MichaelG.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The Martin Baker Mk – 4B seat fitted to the Hawker Hunter T – 7 has a minimum altitude of 0 ft/ ground level, and a minimum speed of 90 kts.

Ian S C

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I would still like to know why he had his flaps down at the top of the loop.

Clive

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2015 12:29:51:

I remember reading something along the lines that pilots kept getting back injuries from ejector seats.

Many different types of accelerant have been tried for ejection seats. However, as far as I am aware the older RAF seats used solid propellant, which was essentially uncontrolled and could create very large accelerations. The result was that the pilot might survive, but possibly with severe back injuries. More modern seats use rocket motors that have a controlled burn, so presumably the acceleration can be tuned to get the seat out PDQ while not exceeding the maximum spinal loading. Presumably the more controlled burn of a rocket motor also helps make the seat zero-zero.

To my surprise I did fly yesterday. It was 'orrible! The highest we got was 900 feet, and we flew back to the airfield in heavy rain and very poor visibility at (redacted) feet. Let's just say we were going round, not over, the wind turbines. The instructor reckoned that since I wasn't fazed by the condtions, and was able to hold the headings he was giving me from the NDB, there wasn't much wrong with my flying. So that's everything signed up for another two years.

Andrew

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

May be worth a read **LINK** as it covers the issues of spinal injury and the ways they try to limit the problem by a two stage acceleration.

I think the still fire the seat out of the aircraft with an explosive and rockets taking over to get the necessary height at low altitude to allow a safe deployment of the chute. Never mind underwater!

Bob

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I remember seeing a TV program about the chap who actually tested the seats, can't remember the name. He got some pretty horrific injuries just doing the job, displaced organs etc., but reckoned to recover after a few weeks.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Ian A & Bob B – it is usually regarded as 'tasteless' to criticise people in that way. However, it is also possible to become rather 'star-struck' over the displays performed at airshows. It is a fact that the loss of life of the public is (thankfully) minimal, however the participants dispose of themselves quite regularly. I suspect that the author of that vituperative piece is as aware of the problems as I am and, while undoubtedly OTT, it reflects concern not spite. Pilots operate in the Bell Curve world just as any other profession. Not all doctors, lawyers, whatever professionals are at the 100% level all the time. If you have an interest in such matters the following gives a remarkably full insight into the problem and is used as a prime case study. **LINK**

My predecessor at my second S&R flight posting was a victim of a similar 'expert' whose exploits were known about but not reported or constrained. I had to recover his personal effects from the crash site and it does tend to concentrate the mind and make one regard these events in a 'different' light.

rgds

Bill

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

My opinion is that it is unwise to be that critical in these situations when the full facts are unknown and to criticise someone who is unknown by the hat he wears or his haircut is plain stupid. All sorts of speculation and with out the full story it is totally wrong to assume at this point that it was pilot error

Bob

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 25/08/2015 18:17:13:

Bob,

… So do [or did] I

… Which is why I emboldened the "source"

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … I have just found this … page 17 is relevant.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/08/2015 18:28:22

RE: Ejector seat functionality. There was an incident with a privately owned Jet Provost based at North Weald when a passenger was accidentally ejected. The ejector seat did not have a propellant charge but was otherwise functional and the passenger landed by parachute.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

​Please note that I am completely out of my depth here.

Whilst searching for pictures of the Loughborough drop-test rig that I mentioned earlier: I happened across this report on a previous Hunter accident. … Those with the appropriate technical background may find it of interest.

MichaelG.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Clive – you may find this informative

**LINK** #48 and #51

rgds

Bill

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

And finally … just to put it back into perspective and to offer an alternative venue if the 'knee-jerkers' have their way – **LINK**

… not just 'piston heaven', but super photography and joy o joy o joy!! NO so-called background music nor a mind numbing blabbermouth 'explaining' what you can perfectly well see!!

For the modelling interest, La Ferte Alais also hold a large annual model aircraft meeting as well. Vive La France!!

rgds

Bill

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